Protestant heroes for Christ be Saints?

[OddBird]

Well, there may be Protestants who were devout and brave and holy, but, when a person rejects the Church and Her authority throughout their life and stays seperated from Christ’s body, and dies in that state, well, I don’t know how they can be beatified or canonized. I mean, if you are not a part of Christ’s body and fully keep His teachings, are you truly following Him and remain in Him and He in you?

I can’t speak for Tis, but this, above, is the bit that stood out for me. The OP was talking about people who, basically, died for Christ, and you answered with this. I don’t know what your intention was, but to me, it sounds a bit dismissive and condemnatory. Maybe I misread you; if that is the case, I’m sorry.

Anyway, two years ago, Pope Francis had this to say about non-Catholics who die because of their faith :

Look to our many brothers and sisters in various parts of the world, particularly in the Middle East, who suffer because they are Christians. Let us draw close to them. May we never forget that our ecumenical journey is preceded and accompanied by an ecumenism already realized, the ecumenism of blood, which urges us to go forward.

(Address to the World Council of Churches, 21st June 2018)

 

[CroatCatholic]

I just want to say that, at least for me, it makes no sense to beatify or canonize a non-Catholic who stayed outside of the Church for his whole life, that is, who stayed seperated from the Church and the See of Peter…

 

[Bithynian]

A significant reason why Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) don’t canonise and venerate those outside of the our respective communions is due to how the practice was shaped in the ante-Nicene (pre-325) period.

Saints in that period were almost exclusively martyrs, and their particular cults (in the neutral sense) typically developed locally in the absence of a centralised canonisation process. Martyrs were highly esteemed, much more so than present, and they were essentially mobbed by visitors whilst on death row as their intercessions were understood as particularly efficacious in light of their impending martyrdom.

Because of this, Church A’s commemoration of saint/martyr B from Church B was generally understood as an act of communion between churches A and B, a mutual recognition that saint/martyr B died for the same faith that was expressed in full within both churches.

Given the many significant theological disputes between Protestants and Catholics on any number of issues, a mutual recognition of post-Reformation martyrs (or saints) is theologically difficult.

But some Protestant churches do memorialise Catholic saints/martyrs. There is a statue of Maximillian Kolbe above the west door of Westminster Abbey along with nine other 20th century Christian martyrs.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We’re not supposed to create friction on this site or the traffic cops will get us, but DD was a card carrying communist and an anarchist!

Dorothy Day is a Servant of God, which means she’s got an active, authorized sainthood cause.

Insulting her on this forum is denigrating Catholicism, which is inappropriate.

 

[CroatCatholic]

Don’t worry, I take nothing as harm. I am open to correction and advice, for I am just an unworthy sinner who is still young and unlearned.

If I have said error, I beg my brethren to correct me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

it makes no sense to beatify or canonize a non-Catholic who stayed outside of the Church for his whole life

No one is “beatifying” or “canonizing” them. Did you read the thread? It’s been clearly stated in several posts that non-Catholics do not get beatified or canonized, which is the official recognition by the Church.

As I have explained already, non-Catholics can go to Heaven, which would make them saints. Not canonized Saints as in St. Peter, St. John Henry Newman, etc. who are officially recognized by the Church and can be honored with a feast day and have churches named after them, but saints by the definition of saint, which means any soul in Heaven. On “All Saints’ Day” we honor every soul in Heaven, not just the ones beatified or canonized by the Church.

And one is permitted to privately ask for the intercession of any soul we reasonably believe is in Heaven. We can certainly believe/ have hope that a Protestant who lived his or her faith heroically is in Heaven. We can even believe/ have hope that our ordinary Protestant deceased friends and family are in Heaven, especially if we pray for them.

You suggested in several of your posts that Protestants who didn’t die as unbaptized infants and weren’t ignorant of the existence of the Catholic Church weren’t going to Heaven. Several of us rightly had a problem with this because it’s not what the Church teaches. Moreover, as Oddbird noted, you made this remark in the context of discussing people who heroically opposed the Nazi regime at great cost to themselves. This has been clearly explained to you at least 3 times now. I am muting this thread as I am repeating myself.

 

[annad347]

We leave EVERYONE to the “mercy and decision of God”…this would include large numbers of my deceased non-Catholic immediate family as well as the heroic non-Catholic Christians mentioned in the OP’s first post, and many more heroic non-Catholics I could name.

and Catholic. Those born into good Catholic families, those baptized Catholic as infants or adults. Those who converted to Catholicism. Catholics are also included as those left to the “mercy and decision of God”…right?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, but it is understood that since communion with the Catholic church (as discussed in the Catechism) is needed to enter Heaven, a Catholic has the easier path to get there assuming he or she remains in communion with the Church.

Non-Catholics and even non-Christians can go to heaven as well, but as they are less in communion with the Church, we rely more on God’s mercy to get them there because they’re not getting all the sacramental helps and other helps that the Church gives its members who stay in communion with it and in a state of grace.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

However, you are incorrect when you say canonizations are not infallible and the Church is not protected from error when declaring saints.

I don’t think there is anything suggesting canonizations of the Church are always correct or infallible. One may make case for canonizations by the Pope to be infallible, but even then those are not all canonizations. This would also make Saints of Eastern Churches be somewhat dubious while Saints of Latin Church would not.

Historically, venerations started as part of tradition and were seldom proclaimed by Popes before they were officially allowed. WIth some abuses of that, Popes reserved rights to canonize Saints for themselves. This however possibly only affects those of Latin Church because Eastern Churches have Saints in their Calenders which were not (or did not need) approval of Rome. Some were actually condemned by Rome (Gregory Palamas) at time of controversion, and some were later re-introduced (again, Gregory Palamas). If indeed they are infallible, they are infallible in sense of ordinary magisterium.

A Catholic is NOT allowed to disagree with the Church’s pronouncement of canonization and say “Well, I don’t think St. Pope John Paul II is really in heaven” or whatever.

One may still refrain from venerating the Saint.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think there is anything suggesting canonizations of the Church are always correct or infallible.

I’m still waiting for a Vatican source backing up your point. As you haven’t provided one, I presume this is all just your personal opinion.

As for veneration, you can venerate or not venerate whom you please. However, if you’re not venerating a canonized saint of the Church because you personally decided the Church got it wrong, it’s inappropriate for you to go around saying that, and even if you just think it silently to yourself, God is going to know that and judge you as he wishes.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I’m still waiting for a Vatican source backing up your point. As you haven’t provided one, I presume this is all just your personal opinion.

I am not sure if I understand… I can not prove absence of something from documents. That would be like saying “Can you prove Coca cola commercials are not infallible? Provide Vatican source saying Coca Cola commercials are not infallible otherwise they are.”

I know that some Saints and Theologians have been of opinion that canonizations are infallible, but I do not think this was ever officially infallibly proclaimed to be so.

Edit: I will probably make a thread about this, because as of now I am unsure. Many people claim they are infallible but some theologians are saying the opposite. Church herself has not ever taught that beatifications or canonizations are infallible… yet some believe that Papal Infallibility extends to that… it’s somewhat complicated and deserves more than 4 hours that are left to this thread. I will search through old CAF threads too and PM you if I find answers in them

 

[CroatCatholic]

Well, I shall say again:

I leave all to the mercy and decision of God.
We can personally hope and pray in private for intercession of non-Catholics. So, when this is the matter, it is personal preferences. If one has great hope that a Protestant is in Heaven, while the other is more pessimistic, as long as we are not making ourselves judges and forcing others and the Church to our opinion, it is no problem.

May God have mercy upon us all, and may He lead us all into Truth and Light!

Peace!

 

[OddBird]

But even without an official recognition which would probably make little sense, one can still recognize the sainthood of a life lived out and given for Christ, don’t you think ?

 

[annad347]

as discussed in the Catechism

But not according to the bible which is more accurate to The Word of God and the path to Jesus and His Church. then the Catechism, which is an extension of God’s word.

 

[CroatCatholic]

Well, as long we aren’t making ourselves the Church or forcing others to the opinion, looking up to, and hoping for salvation of a non-Catholic is no problem, I think then…
And, of course, there were definitely, for example Protestants, who were nice and striving for holiness and purity, but it is a personal opinion if you think he is in Heaven or not, and you can be either optimistic or pessimistic.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

But not according to the bible which is more accurate to The Word of God and the path to Jesus and His Church. then the Catechism, which is an extension of God’s word.

More accurate? Bible is infallible and contains things necessary for salvation… but Catechism explains those things in language that is much more clear to us today. Our Lord spoke in parables as prophesied, but that also makes it somewhat hard to understand without being expert on the topic- and many can come to wrong conclusions. Catechism uses direct language that is more understandable to people nowadays, and much like Bible, Catechism was too compiled by Infallible Church.

 

[TMC]

Personally, I would love to see the Church canonize some non-Catholics. I doubt it will happen (at least not for a while), precisely because it would create an outcry by those who feel like many in this thread. But there are certainly plenty of non-Catholics who would be good candidates (in my view).

 

[annad347]

Why is this thread closing in 4 hours? People are still posting replies.

 

[annad347]

Catechism uses direct language that is more understandable to people nowadays, and much like Bible, Catechism was too compiled by Infallible Church

Wouldn’t that make the Catechism one interpretation of The Word of God, the Bible? That being outside The Church isn’t the Catholic Church but denying Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, living without The Holy Spirit guiding you to live by God’s Will?

 

[CroatCatholic]

I think that after all of this we can agree on this:

As long as it is a personal opinion and is not foeced on others, you can be either optimistic or pessimistic about the salvation of non-Catholics.
But, when it comes to beatification and canonization, well, it is strongly unlikely that the Church will ever beatify or canonize a non-Catholic.
I think we can all agree on this.

Peace!