Protestant hymns?

[mercygate]

**Uh-huh. Do you use a Gospel setting of the Ordinary? **

---

I don’t know what you mean by using a “Gospel setting of the Ordinary”…

The Ordinary Form is celebrated the way as it is supposed to be done. The service music is not chant but done in parts (polyphony???). And very beautifully too. Not Gospel… Sorry I don’t know whose liturgical music we are using since we don’t use hymnals for the service music. We sing it all from memory as most Gospel Choirs do.

The Ordinary is those parts of the Mass that you named – the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc.

You made it sound as if you had Gospel-type music for those parts of the Mass. It sort of makes sense that this would happen in when you have a Gospel choir. What I mean by musical “integration” is that you would sing Gospel hymns with Gospel-type settings of the parts of the Mass. It always shakes me up when we sing (say) Gregorian chant or the Ordinary, and then sing folk-rock songs for the congregational hymns.

 

[benedictgal]

Now, I NEVER disagree with you. But I DO disagree that “Amazing Grace” excludes a Catholic view. Even if we are imbued with grace at baptism as an infant (as Newton was), the moment we appropriate that grace and “first believe” IS a moment of “amazing grace,” and is a vivid landmark in our continuing journey to Christ.

However, if you look at the theology, it really doesn’t match what the Church teaches. We don’t get grace the hour we first believe. The grace has already been there since the moment of our baptism. That is sanctifying grace. Furthermore, conversion is an on-going experience. It’s not a one-and-done thing, the manner in which Protestants look at it.

 

[benedictgal]

The hymn does NOT say that we “receive grace the hour we first believe.”

The hymn says “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.”

The implication is strong that the grace was already there, and the person realized it or “believed it,” which is what happens as babies grow up.

Every Catholic comes to a place where they actually “believe” or “accept” or “realize” or “comprehend” (use whatever word makes the most sense to you) what happened to them at their baptism.

For some this happens at First Holy Communion or even earlier.

For others, they don’t truly “believe” until Confirmation.

And for still others, this happens at a later time in their life. I have heard many Catholics testify that they had no idea what their faith actually meant to them personally until they were older.

It would be wise to read the hymns before critiquing them.

But, you are looking at it from a Protestant perspective where many denominations downplay and don’t subscribe to the notion of infant baptism. Grace doesn’t kick in the hour you first believe. It kicks in the minute the sacrament is received. That is sanctifying grace.

Now, granted, in some cases, it will remain dormant, but, that is not to say that it isn’t there.

 

[mercygate]

However, if you look at the theology, it really doesn’t match what the Church teaches. We don’t get grace the hour we first believe. The grace has already been there since the moment of our baptism. That is sanctifying grace. Furthermore, conversion is an on-going experience. It’s not a one-and-done thing, the manner in which Protestants look at it.

I disagree that grace comes only once. We receive grace(s) throughout our lives, and the awareness of grace living in our lives is, in itself an “amazing grace.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

But, you are looking at it from a Protestant perspective where many denominations downplay and don’t subscribe to the notion of infant baptism. Grace doesn’t kick in the hour you first believe. It kicks in the minute the sacrament is received. That is sanctifying grace.

Now, granted, in some cases, it will remain dormant, but, that is not to say that it isn’t there.

“How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.”

Even the truth of your observations in the last two posts (and your are quite right) do not demonstrate any major problems with the song per se. Sanctifying grace may well not appear to be precious until one believes. Many of our own saints, baptized as babies, lived reprobate lives until they were returned to the faith, ie., converted. What had, apparently, not been precious to them BECAME precious.

Mind you, I think the song is simply overdone.

 

[mercygate]

“How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.”

Even the truth of your observations in the last two posts (and your are quite right) do not demonstrate any major problems with the song per se. Sanctifying grace may well not appear to be precious until one believes. Many of our own saints, baptized as babies, lived reprobate lives until they were returned to the faith, ie., converted. What had, apparently, not been precious to them BECAME precious.

Mind you, I think the song is simply overdone.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Joe_5859]

There is sanctifying grace (which we receive at Baptism), and then there are all those actual graces (which we receive at many different times all throughout our life). Perhaps the song is speaking of an actual grace?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

There is sanctifying grace (which we receive at Baptism), and then there are all those actual graces (which we receive at many different times all throughout our life). Perhaps the song is speaking of an actual grace?

Any time I’ve been knocked to my knees has certainly been grace!

 

[Cat]

I think that rather than always assuming the worst and seeing the bad in everything, we should always assume the best and try to see the good in everything.

E.g., benedictgal is convinced that the song Amazing Grace is worthless and should be stricken from the Catholic hymnals because it MUST be talking about a Protestant theology in which grace is received only upon a profession of belief.

I and apparently tens of thousands of other Catholics are convinced that the song Amazing Grace is beautiful because it talks about how precious the grace appears when we first become aware of it for ourselves. We think back to the time when we first received Jesus in Holy Communion and really understood exactly WHO we were eating and drinking.

Call me a Polyanna Catholic, but I just don’t see the demon hiding behind the bush on this song. Perhaps it’s because I CHOOSE not to see the demon because there is so much that is good in the song. To me, it’s like a child with a port-wine birthmark. I could choose to stare at the port-wine birthmark and say, “What a shame that the child isn’t perfect.” But what I choose to do is look at all the other good things about that child, including his/her port-wine birthmark, and say, “What a beautiful child!”

If you see the demon, more power to you, but please allow the rest of us to imbue it with our Catholic interpretation and enjoy it heartily.

The hymn “Amazing Grace” is even more special to me now that I am Catholic than it ever was when I was Protestant.

 

[Cat]

Are there other “Protestant hymns” in the Catholic hymnals besides “Amazing Grace” (which many of us consider Catholic) and "Battle Hymn of the Republic (which many of us consider Catholic)?

In other threads, people have mentioned “Shine Jesus Shine,” and “Our God Is An Awesome God.” Can someone spell out what is “Protestant” about these contemporary hymns?

Thanks.

 

[mercygate]

I think that rather than always assuming the worst and seeing the bad in everything, we should always assume the best and try to see the good in everything.

E.g., benedictgal is convinced that the song Amazing Grace is worthless and should be stricken from the Catholic hymnals because it MUST be talking about a Protestant theology in which grace is received only upon a profession of belief.

I and apparently tens of thousands of other Catholics are convinced that the song Amazing Grace is beautiful because it talks about how precious the grace appears when we first become aware of it for ourselves. We think back to the time when we first received Jesus in Holy Communion and really understood exactly WHO we were eating and drinking.

Call me a Polyanna Catholic, but I just don’t see the demon hiding behind the bush on this song. Perhaps it’s because I CHOOSE not to see the demon because there is so much that is good in the song. To me, it’s like a child with a port-wine birthmark. I could choose to stare at the port-wine birthmark and say, “What a shame that the child isn’t perfect.” But what I choose to do is look at all the other good things about that child, including his/her port-wine birthmark, and say, “What a beautiful child!”

If you see the demon, more power to you, but please allow the rest of us to imbue it with our Catholic interpretation and enjoy it heartily.

The hymn “Amazing Grace” is even more special to me now that I am Catholic than it ever was when I was Protestant.

It is not by ANY means on my top fifty list, but I DO kind of get bubbly at the words, "When we’ve been there ten thousand years / Bright shining as the sun / We’ve still more years to sing God’s praise / Than when we’d first begun.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Are there other “Protestant hymns” in the Catholic hymnals besides “Amazing Grace” (which many of us consider Catholic) and "Battle Hymn of the Republic (which many of us consider Catholic)?

In other threads, people have mentioned “Shine Jesus Shine,” and “Our God Is An Awesome God.” Can someone spell out what is “Protestant” about these contemporary hymns?

Thanks.

Well, Cat, there’s also “How Great Thou Art,” as I mentioned earlier.

We might want to be a little careful, perhaps, in calling them “Catholic Hymns” outright. In a very real sense, they aren’t, since they do not rise out of our tradition. Some of Fanny Crosby’s wonderful hymns come to mind. I rather imagine that this devout Baptist would object to those being called Catholic.

I suppose, however, that it would be equally true that they ARE Catholic in the sense that whatever they have that is true is derived from and the original posession OF the Catholic Church.
But when one thinks of Catholic music, one tends to think of, on one end of the spectrum, Palestrina or, on the other, perhaps John Michael Talbot (whose music is PERFECTLY orthodox and well done, even if one does not like strummed guitar in Mass). Sadly, “Catholic” music has also come to include the dreadful “Canticle of the Sun” by Marty Haugen. I’m terrified that my purgatory (if by God’s Grace I make it there) will consist of teaching this song to a congregation of cats.

 

[mercygate]

Well, Cat, there’s also “How Great Thou Art,” as I mentioned earlier.

We might want to be a little careful, perhaps, in calling them “Catholic Hymns” outright. In a very real sense, they aren’t, since they do not rise out of our tradition. Some of Fanny Crosby’s wonderful hymns come to mind. I rather imagine that this devout Baptist would object to those being called Catholic.

I suppose, however, that it would be equally true that they ARE Catholic in the sense that whatever they have that is true is derived from and the original posession OF the Catholic Church.
But when one thinks of Catholic music, one tends to think of, on one end of the spectrum, Palestrina or, on the other, perhaps John Michael Talbot (whose music is PERFECTLY orthodox and well done, even if one does not like strummed guitar in Mass). Sadly, “Catholic” music has also come to include the dreadful “Canticle of the Sun” by Marty Haugen. I’m terrified that my purgatory (if by God’s Grace I make it there) will consist of teaching this song [Canticle of the Sun] to a congregation of cats.

Well, we’ll be doing it together.

 

[benedictgal]

I disagree that grace comes only once. We receive grace(s) throughout our lives, and the awareness of grace living in our lives is, in itself an “amazing grace.”

Now, I never said that grace comes once. Protestants believe that conversion is a one-and-done thing. Conversion is continual.

Again, the Protestant prespective on salvation is a complete rejection of what the Church teaches. That is why it is not necessariy a good idea to keep going to the Protestant well for songs. In fact, the Eastern Rite has some beautiful hymns. “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” is based on the Divine Liturgy of St. James.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, we’ll be doing it together.

It would be a pleasure to work with you, Mercy, therefore I doubt they’ll allow it!

 

[ProVobis]

The Divine Liturgy is actually intended to be sung from beginning to end.

I don’t know about that but I do know some priests that seem to be more comfortable singing the Latin than saying it. Polyphony sounds pretty good too. What’s your feel about that?

 

[elgar]

Are there other “Protestant hymns” in the Catholic hymnals besides “Amazing Grace” (which many of us consider Catholic) and "Battle Hymn of the Republic (which many of us consider Catholic)?

In other threads, people have mentioned “Shine Jesus Shine,” and “Our God Is An Awesome God.” Can someone spell out what is “Protestant” about these contemporary hymns?

Thanks.

Boy this thread is all over the place. I remember protestant hymns being introduced around 1964 through Collegeville Press. Remember these were pre-misalette days. They actually produced a hard bound book, somewhat limited in numbers of hymns and melody only editions. Most were translations of German Chorales, “Praise to the Lord, Now Thank We All Our God, O Sacred Head” etc. This was a really fine attempt to expose Catholics to some of the finest Western Protestant hymnody. Somehow this effort got hijacked by insiders with an agenda–sigh.

 

[Cat]

Well, Cat, there’s also “How Great Thou Art,” as I mentioned earlier.

We might want to be a little careful, perhaps, in calling them “Catholic Hymns” outright. In a very real sense, they aren’t, since they do not rise out of our tradition. Some of Fanny Crosby’s wonderful hymns come to mind. I rather imagine that this devout Baptist would object to those being called Catholic.

I suppose, however, that it would be equally true that they ARE Catholic in the sense that whatever they have that is true is derived from and the original posession OF the Catholic Church.
But when one thinks of Catholic music, one tends to think of, on one end of the spectrum, Palestrina or, on the other, perhaps John Michael Talbot (whose music is PERFECTLY orthodox and well done, even if one does not like strummed guitar in Mass). Sadly, “Catholic” music has also come to include the dreadful “Canticle of the Sun” by Marty Haugen. I’m terrified that my purgatory (if by God’s Grace I make it there) will consist of teaching this song to a congregation of cats.

How funny.

I play piano for a 100 year-old Catholic parish that is ministered by the Conventual Franciscan Friars. Here’s the website: stanthonyrockford.com/

“Canticle of the Sun” is like a “theme song” in that parish! Everyone loves it! It is a guaranteed “everyone will sing out” hymn selection. I love playing it for the people because I know that THEY like it!

This hymn is so meaningful to the Franciscans, and through their life and words, they make this hymn meaningful to all of us.

You should have heard the homilies from the Franciscan friars this Sunday when the Gospel was “The Parable of the Soils!” Woohoo! I wanted to go straight home and start a garden! (Unfortunately, nothing grows once I touch it.)

If this thread accomplishes anything at all, I hope that somehow I can get across the message that all of us are different, and what we love in hymnody is different, and that’s OK according to the Catholic Church! There is no such thing as a “dreadful” hymn! A hymn that does nothing for you might cause me to dissolve into tears.

What I’m really looking for with this thread is “Protestant Hymns,” whatever they are. I see the term thrown around throughout this forum, but so far in this thread, no one has succeeded in convincing me that there are hymns in the Catholic hymnals that are so Protestant that they should be ripped from the hymnals and banned from the Mass. What exactly are those “Protestant hymns?” and why are they unsuitable for Catholic hymnals?

I am beginning to suspect that “Protestant hymns” are hymns that someone doesn’t personally like, but that’s probably a bit wicked of me.

 

[Cat]

Well, Cat, there’s also “How Great Thou Art,” as I mentioned earlier.

We might want to be a little careful, perhaps, in calling them “Catholic Hymns” outright. In a very real sense, they aren’t, since they do not rise out of our tradition. Some of Fanny Crosby’s wonderful hymns come to mind. I rather imagine that this devout Baptist would object to those being called Catholic.

I suppose, however, that it would be equally true that they ARE Catholic in the sense that whatever they have that is true is derived from and the original posession OF the Catholic Church.
But when one thinks of Catholic music, one tends to think of, on one end of the spectrum, Palestrina or, on the other, perhaps John Michael Talbot (whose music is PERFECTLY orthodox and well done, even if one does not like strummed guitar in Mass). Sadly, “Catholic” music has also come to include the dreadful “Canticle of the Sun” by Marty Haugen. I’m terrified that my purgatory (if by God’s Grace I make it there) will consist of teaching this song to a congregation of cats.

Speaking of “How Great Thou Art”–I’ve been looking for an appropriate opportunity to tell this little story.

One afternoon last week, I spent an hour in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament at our parish Adoration Chapel. When I came out, the sky was dark as night and full of rolling black clouds, the wind was whistling, and rain smells filled the air. A storm was coming.

Standing in front of the Adoration Chapel was a man that I have never seen before. He was standing next to a car covered with “Catholic” and pro-life bumper stickers. About my age, or maybe a few years younger (I’m 51.)

He was taking pictures of the sky with his cell phone camera, and singing with all his heart, “How Great Thou Art!”

I greeted him and said something about an approaching storm.

He replied in a jolly voice, “Yes, it makes me want to sing this song!”

And he continued singing and taking pictures.

It was only later that I thought, “Maybe he wasn’t a man at all. I’ve never seen him around the Chapel. Maybe he was an angel, and maybe he talked to me and captured my attention with his song for a few minutes to delay me in order to protect me from a car accident or a bolt of lightening.”

Probably just my imagination. But I certainly did get a big blessing hearing him sing in the center of the storm, and if he WAS an angel, he did a good job! Praise the Lord for that experience!

 

[elgar]

A few months ago at Mass, we were singing a hymn and at the bottom of the page, I happened to notice it said it was written by John and Charles Wesley. I was pretty surprised by that, and I found it ironic because, prior to becoming Catholic, I was Wesleyan for a few years.

Whenever there are hymns written by Protestants, do they have to be approved by the Bishop or anything before they can be used in the Liturgy?

Don’t be turned off by the likes of Charles or John Wesley just because they were non-catholics. They were giants as hymn writers and theologians. Also grandson, S.S. Wesley was quite the “thorn-in-the-side” annoyance to the religious establishment in 19th century England. Their music is legend and by today’s standards they would be considered Catholic writers.