Protestant hymns?

[consumedconvert]

Which one? “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling”? “Christ The Lord Is Risen Today”? “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”?

Charles Wesley was amazingly prolific indeed.

 

[Cat]

I would hope that a hymn or spiritual song wouldn’t be condemned simply because its writer was Protestant.

While I was still evangelical Protestant, I wrote about 70 Christian songs.

Now that I am Catholic, I am discovering that many of these song are incredibly “Catholic” in their theology, in spite of the fact that I was a committed evangelical Protestant at the time I wrote them.

I absolutely swear that I had no idea back then of how a Rosary was prayed or what the Mysteries were. But somehow around 20 years ago, I wrote a song called “Christmas Lights” that contained, in order, the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary (minus the Assumption of the Blessed Mother and her glorious crowning as Queen of Heaven).

It was always my husband’s favorite song that I ever wrote. It was he who first realized that the song was actually the Rosary mysteries set to music.

I wrote another song called “The Boo Boo Song,” for little children. My oldest daughter (now 25), sang it as a solo in church when she was only 3. That gives you an idea of how simple the song is.

Yet a few months ago, right before she was received into the Catholic Church, my daughter found the words of that song and realized that it was a very graphic picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary pleading with her Son for the souls of humans and helping those humans to find their way to her Son, the Lord Jesus.

(So don’t be too quick to condemn as useless “simplistic” songs–sometimes a very simple, child-like song can contain very deep truths.)

I wrote a song called “Adventure,” an action song all about the Bible, and during this song (another children’s song), the various saints of the Old Testament, the “witnesses” of what is happening here on earth (see the book of Hebrews) line up and call out their names. It’s great fun for children–each child takes the name of a saint and when it’s their turn, they yell out that name.

But this is a CATHOLIC teaching–the Communion of the Saints, the belief that the saints in heaven see and intercede for those of us on earth!

Yet somehow I wrote a song about this “Catholic” teaching while I was still Protestant.

One more example–the best song I have ever written is called “It’s Time To Hold The Baby.” It’s all about reaching out to Baby Jesus and holding Him, loving Him, trying to make Him smile.

**Now when was the last time you met a Protestant with a devotion to the Infant Jesus?! **

I had no idea that such a “devotion” existed back when I was evangelical Protestant! But GOD knew, and GOD and the Blessed Mother taught me to honor the Baby Jesus.

For the past few years, my younger daughter has sung this song as a Communion meditation at Mass (OF) during Christmas time. And the people in the parish literally weep, even the men. People ask me during the summer months, “Will she come back and sing that song about the Baby Jesus again?”

I used to do this song about the Baby Jesus for Protestants, and they loved it. But when I became Catholic, I realized–with a shock–that there was a whole lot more meaning to"It’s Time To Hold The Baby." A light came on in my soul and I finally understood the meaning of my own song!

So you see, fellow CAF members, God can teach Protestants “Catholicism!” And Protestants can and DO write down what God teaches them, and these writings can and DO edify, teach, and bring good cheer to Catholics.

So I hope that you will not dismiss a song just because it was written by a Protestant. Remember that God gives men and women the ability to write songs, and God will use the strangest vessels to bring refreshment to His people!

 

[MissSherri]

Guess you all are right and I am wrong. I’m sorry.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I would hope that a hymn or spiritual song wouldn’t be condemned simply because its writer was Protestant.

While I was still evangelical Protestant, I wrote about 70 Christian songs.

Now that I am Catholic, I am discovering that many of these song are incredibly “Catholic” in their theology, in spite of the fact that I was a committed evangelical Protestant at the time I wrote them.

I absolutely swear that I had no idea back then of how a Rosary was prayed or what the Mysteries were. But somehow around 20 years ago, I wrote a song called “Christmas Lights” that contained, in order, the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary (minus the Assumption of the Blessed Mother and her glorious crowning as Queen of Heaven).

It was always my husband’s favorite song that I ever wrote. It was he who first realized that the song was actually the Rosary mysteries set to music.

I wrote another song called “The Boo Boo Song,” for little children. My oldest daughter (now 25), sang it as a solo in church when she was only 3. That gives you an idea of how simple the song is.

Yet a few months ago, right before she was received into the Catholic Church, my daughter found the words of that song and realized that it was a very graphic picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary pleading with her Son for the souls of humans and helping those humans to find their way to her Son, the Lord Jesus.

(So don’t be too quick to condemn as useless “simplistic” songs–sometimes a very simple, child-like song can contain very deep truths.)

I wrote a song called “Adventure,” an action song all about the Bible, and during this song (another children’s song), the various saints of the Old Testament, the “witnesses” of what is happening here on earth (see the book of Hebrews) line up and call out their names. It’s great fun for children–each child takes the name of a saint and when it’s their turn, they yell out that name.

But this is a CATHOLIC teaching–the Communion of the Saints, the belief that the saints in heaven see and intercede for those of us on earth!

Yet somehow I wrote a song about this “Catholic” teaching while I was still Protestant.

One more example–the best song I have ever written is called “It’s Time To Hold The Baby.” It’s all about reaching out to Baby Jesus and holding Him, loving Him, trying to make Him smile.

**Now when was the last time you met a Protestant with a devotion to the Infant Jesus?! **

I had no idea that such a “devotion” existed back when I was evangelical Protestant! But GOD knew, and GOD and the Blessed Mother taught me to honor the Baby Jesus.

For the past few years, my younger daughter has sung this song as a Communion meditation at Mass (OF) during Christmas time. And the people in the parish literally weep, even the men. People ask me during the summer months, “Will she come back and sing that song about the Baby Jesus again?”

I used to do this song about the Baby Jesus for Protestants, and they loved it. But when I became Catholic, I realized–with a shock–that there was a whole lot more meaning to"It’s Time To Hold The Baby." A light came on in my soul and I finally understood the meaning of my own song!

So you see, fellow CAF members, God can teach Protestants “Catholicism!” And Protestants can and DO write down what God teaches them, and these writings can and DO edify, teach, and bring good cheer to Catholics.

So I hope that you will not dismiss a song just because it was written by a Protestant. Remember that God gives men and women the ability to write songs, and God will use the strangest vessels to bring refreshment to His people!

Did you grow up Evangelical, Cat? I ask because I remember the children’s songs that we were taught in Sunday School, that summarized stories from the Bible, like “Zaccheus Was a Wee Little Man.” The Church would do well to introduce such “Protestant” songs into the primary curriculm of Catholic schools and religious education programs. It’s how the stories of the Bible became rooted in our minds.

 

[Cat]

Did you grow up Evangelical, Cat? I ask because I remember the children’s songs that we were taught in Sunday School, that summarized stories from the Bible, like “Zaccheus Was a Wee Little Man.” The Church would do well to introduce such “Protestant” songs into the primary curriculm of Catholic schools and religious education programs. It’s how the stories of the Bible became rooted in our minds.

Yes, and I agree with you about these “story songs.” The combination of singing and actions makes them fun to sing and helps little ones to remember the Bible stories.

In fact, it’s my opinion that some grownups could benefit with a short class in “Baby Bible Songs!” If nothing else, they’re a good workout.

I like Only A Boy Named David.

Also, I like The Wise Man Built His House Upon The Rock. When I was in 2nd grade, our Baptist church VBS piano player (the youth pastor’s wife) made the piano go “Splat” at the end of the song, and I (and all the other kids) loved it! It was at that time that I decided I wanted to learn how to play the piano, and play songs like that for little kids. To this day, other than playing for Mass, my main accompanying work is with children and teenagers.

 

[Joe_5859]

Whenever there are hymns written by Protestants, do they have to be approved by the Bishop or anything before they can be used in the Liturgy?

That’s the $1,000,000 question! At this moment, much to many people’s chagrin, the US bishops don’t really have any sort of approval process for songs to be used in the liturgy. Pretty much, if someone writes it and OCP publishes it, then it gets used. I keep hearing rumors that the bishops are moving towards some sort of approved hymnal or list of approved songs, but I’m not holding my breath.

It is interesting, though, that even in the Liturgy of Hours book, their are “Protestant” hymns in the back (i.e. hymns written by Luther, Wesley, etc.). If it’s good enough for use with the Liturgy of the Hours, I think they should be okay.

My point is this: our musical problems are our OWN.

Amen! As much as we might like to, we can’t blame the Protestants for this one. Most of the worst hymns out there right now were written by Catholics (or at least for Catholics in the case of Marty Haugen).

 

[mercygate]

I think every single Christian church should play amazing grace! protestant or not it is a beautiful song that shows how many people come to God. I call it my “theme song” for my conversion.

While I don’t “love” the folky sing-song Gaelic-Appalachian type tune of Amazing Grace, the words are terrific.

I have heard people claim that “the hour I first believed” refers to the born-again-once-saved-always-saved teaching of some Protestant sects. I don’t buy that. EVERY Christian is called to conversion, and some of us CAN put our finger on one moment when the switch went on in our little pea-brain and we “first” believed the promises made for us in baptism. “The hour I first believed” can refer to any kind of conversion experience. In fact, Many of us have had more than one “first” moment as we proceed from grace to grace.

I still don’t like the tune, though.

 

[mercygate]

That’s the $1,000,000 question! At this moment, much to many people’s chagrin, the US bishops don’t really have any sort of approval process for songs to be used in the liturgy. Pretty much, if someone writes it and OCP publishes it, then it gets used. I keep hearing rumors that the bishops are moving towards some sort of approved hymnal or list of approved songs, but I’m not holding my breath.

It is interesting, though, that even in the Liturgy of Hours book, their are “Protestant” hymns in the back (i.e. hymns written by Luther, Wesley, etc.). If it’s good enough for use with the Liturgy of the Hours, I think they should be okay.

Amen! As much as we might like to, we can’t blame the Protestants for this one. Most of the worst hymns out there right now were written by Catholics (or at least for Catholics in the case of Marty Haugen).

Agreed. Ninety percent of what Catholics and Protestants believe about God is the same. Where a musically “good” Protestant hymn might mis-state Catholic theology, it is no big deal to modify the language.

Good grief! WHOSE idea was it anyway to “Sing a New Church”? Can’t blame THAT on the Protestants.

 

[mercygate]

Since I am one of the ones who “complain,” (i.e. criticize) contemporary Catholic musical culture, allow me to share a little taxonomy. This issue is dearer to me than perhaps any other. I’ve divided what we’ve called “Protestant Hymns” into four categories:

1. High Church Music. This is the music of the early reformers, Bach, Handel, Luther’s hymns, and others fall into this category. Though written by Protestants, this category has a musical richness that is edifying to God and to the Church. However, there is often the danger of theologically incorrect elements infiltrating the lyrics. Oftentimes though, it would take a theologian to sort through these pieces and adequately identify what is Non-Catholic about them, so there’s not really as big of a problem with using them.
2. Low Church Music. These are the “Spirituals” and other hymns of the low-Church protestants (Baptists, Methodists, etc). One good thing about these hymns is that they are unapologetic about salvation. One bad thing is that these hymns often encourage sins such as the sin of presumption (Amazing Grace, for example) or are centered not on God, but on Man’s encounter with God, thus they end up being “horizontal” in their approach. This form of hymn has a lot of emotional fervor that is not necessarily a bad thing. However, these hymns are very culturally “particularistic,” as we can see with the bluegrass hymns my grandmother played. They have a specifically Anglo-Saxon, often Southern-American quality that is often dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator in regards to taste.
3. Contemporary “Christian.” This music is drivel, and no self-respecting musician with any taste can accomodate it in the slightest. These songs are often merely pop songs reoriented towards God. They are dumbed down evern more than the hymns of the previous category, to the point that they are not really “hymns” at all. Furthermore, the human agent in the lyrics is often amplified to the point that rather than raising man to God, as is the case with the previous category, they actually raise man above God, in that the focal point lyrically is the action and benefits of the human agent (My Place in This World, by Michael W. Smith, is a perfect example of this).
4. The worst of all Christian music. The new “Catholic” hymns of the 1970’s. “On Eagles’ Wings,” etc. These wretched pieces are especially heinous in so many ways. Unlike the first two categories mentioned above, the composers of these hymns totally lack a decent sense of melody and chord structure. Furthermore, they often contain lame “ornamentations” such as piano slides that any real musician is going to laugh at and dismiss out of hand (one reason the piano should be replaced by the organ). Also, these hymns, more so than the worst Protestant hymns, emphasize horizontal worship, often focused on the “People of God,” instead of God himself, who requires praise. These hymns are based off adapting the “Spirit of Vat II” to the musical culture of the late 70’s and early 80’s, which, in terms of American popular music, is in my opinion the worst era in music history. Think Kenny Loggins singing about the Eucharist. To the contrary, these hymns are actually stuck in time. They are stuck in the “Yacht Rock” era. I don’t like Michael McDonald. I don’t like the hymns based off of Michael McDonald’s style. There you have it.

Our traditional hymns, well, they span centuries. They are timeless. They contain the best elements of all of these categories, yet lack the shortcomings. They edifying like the more high-church Protestant hymns, they are deeply personal and emotion like the low-church hymns, they are also as accessible as the last two genres, provided the individual actually wants to learn a little about sacred music, instead of demanding to be entertained.

What a great post! Yup: we do have to make a distinction between “Sleepers, Wake!” and “The Old Rugged Cross.”

 

[PrayforMallory]

What a great post! Yup: we do have to make a distinction between “Sleepers, Wake!” and “The Old Rugged Cross.”

Thanks. That post was a little harsh. I wish I didn’t have such strong feelings about the Catholic musical heritage. I’m a convert, but I still claim it as my own. It’s an objectively superior musical tradition, to me, at least.

 

[mercygate]

Thanks. That post was a little harsh. I wish I didn’t have such strong feelings about the Catholic musical heritage. I’m a convert, but I still claim it as my own. It’s an objectively superior musical tradition, to me, at least.

If you’re talkin’ “Catholic musical heritage” as in Ambrosian and Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Jusquin du Pres, Mozart, Beethoven, Correlli . . . OK: THAT’s music.

Later musical settings like “St. Thomas”, used for Tantum ergo are just typical hymnody for congregational singing – Catholic words but nondescript 18th century music that any Protestant hymnodist might have used as well (and did).

Other chestnuts of the pre-Vatican 2 Catholic repertory (“Faith of our Fathers”, “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, are, again, hymns anybody might have sung.

Congregational singing is a novelty that began with the Reformation but flourished in earnest in the 18th & 19th enturies among Protestants (Wesley?). And it has been TROUBLE from day one.

One of the problems with all this ghastly “Catholic” hymnody is that it has not had the opportunity to withstand the test of time. Most of it will not. The reason I tend to prefer “old” music is that it HAS been seared in the cauldron of time and passed the test.

One thing that amazes me, however, is that when publishers like GIA and OCP get hold of a Protestant hymnal and try to pick stuff for the Catholic liturgy, they frequently select what to my mind are the worst tunes: “The Ash Grove,” and “Sing of Mary,” are two that come to mind. “Go Tell It on the Mountain” and “Were you There” are two more I would relegate to the youth group campfire.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What a great post! Yup: we do have to make a distinction between “Sleepers, Wake!” and “The Old Rugged Cross.”

But the taste police (and I quite honestly count myself among them) need to come to terms with one tiny reality: yes, “The Old Rugged Cross” ISN’T “Sleepers Awake,” but for VERY many people, the “Old Rugged Cross” resonates much deeper and is far more accessible than “Sleepers Awake.” I think I’m rather highbrow when it comes to music, but I get choked up over such songs as I cited earlier. I would be in complete agreement that “How Great Thou Art” isn’t on the same level as “Tantum Ergo Sacramentum,” and I’m not much moved by most of it, but that line about how “God, His Son not sparing” gets me every time.
Some would say that’s an appeal to emotionalism. You CAN carry emotions too far and I think our Evangelical/Charismatic brethren do so with regretable abandon. Emotions are, however, important to a degree. At the very least, they are an inherent part of our makeup (we aren’t Vulcans).

It’s rather like country music. I dislike most of it, but I’m certainly willing to bend to the fact that it is, here in the US at least, the poetry of the common man. We all need to admit that there is a certain nobility TO the common man, out of which he does NOT need to be lead or educated. He’s just fine the way he is.

 

[mercygate]

But the taste police (and I quite honestly count myself among them) need to come to terms with one tiny reality: yes, “The Old Rugged Cross” ISN’T “Sleepers Awake,” but for VERY many people, the “Old Rugged Cross” resonates much deeper and is far more accessible than “Sleepers Awake.” I think I’m rather highbrow when it comes to music, but I get choked up over such songs as I cited earlier. I would be in complete agreement that “How Great Thou Art” isn’t on the same level as “Tantum Ergo Sacramentum,” and I’m not much moved by most of it, but that line about how “God, His Son not sparing” gets me every time.
Some would say that’s an appeal to emotionalism. You CAN carry emotions too far and I think our Evangelical/Charismatic brethren do so with regretable abandon. Emotions are, however, important to a degree. At the very least, they are an inherent part of our makeup (we aren’t Vulcans).

It’s rather like country music. I dislike most of it, but I’m certainly willing to bend to the fact that it is, here in the US at least, the poetry of the common man. We all need to admit that there is a certain nobility TO the common man, out of which he does NOT need to be lead or educated. He’s just fine the way he is.

As usual: sanity and charity from JKirk. Still, a position such as yours (and I am the CAPTAIN of the taste police) usually translates into NEVER hearing “Sleepers, Wake.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

As usual: sanity and charity from JKirk. Still, a position such as yours (and I am the CAPTAIN of the taste police) usually translates into NEVER hearing “Sleepers, Wake.”

Oh, yes, but that’s MY rant, Mercy. Not only do we NOT get to hear “Sleepers,” we don’t get to hear “How Great Thou Art!” We get to hear the self-affirming ruminations of some pantheistic nun who wears earrings, in which the Lord God of Heaven and Earth is, at best, sort of a benign bystander to whom she gives vague credit for merely being present while she came up with whatever earth bestirring insight which she’s now determined to inflict on the Church.

Edit: And she would have much prefered it if the Divine Bystander had been female!

 

[mercygate]

Oh, yes, but that’s MY rant, Mercy. Not only do we NOT get to hear “Sleepers,” we don’t get to hear “How Great Thou Art!” We get to hear the self-affirming ruminations of some pantheistic nun who wears earrings, in which the Lord God of Heaven and Earth is, at best, sort of a benign bystander to whom she gives vague credit for merely being present while she came up with whatever earth bestirring insight which she’s now determined to inflict on the Church.

Ain’t THAT the truth!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’m popping in here late but the men in my cathedral choir sing “Sleepers Wake” every Advent. It’s been years since I’ve heard “How Great Thou Art”…or Immaculate Mary for that matter.

 

[mercygate]

I’m popping in here late but the men in my cathedral choir sing “Sleepers Wake” every Advent. It’s been years since I’ve heard “How Great Thou Art”…or Immaculate Mary for that matter.

Ha! My favorite anti-Catholic hymn rant: all those Irish parlor songs, like “Lady of Knock”, “Mother of Christ,” “Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning.” Play the music without the words and you couldn’t tell them from “Mother Machree.”

 

[brotherhrolf]

Ha! My favorite anti-Catholic hymn rant: all those Irish parlor songs, like “Lady of Knock”, “Mother of Christ,” “Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning.” Play the music without the words and you couldn’t tell them from “Mother Machree.”

You haven’t heard “Our Lady of Fatima”. Whenever we get new choir members we break it out and see who lasts the longest - the old choir members who can’t keep from falling out of their in laughter or the look of shock on the new members - “Surely they don’t expect us to sing this”.

 

[Cat]

While I don’t “love” the folky sing-song Gaelic-Appalachian type tune of Amazing Grace, the words are terrific.

I have heard people claim that “the hour I first believed” refers to the born-again-once-saved-always-saved teaching of some Protestant sects. I don’t buy that. EVERY Christian is called to conversion, and some of us CAN put our finger on one moment when the switch went on in our little pea-brain and we “first” believed the promises made for us in baptism. “The hour I first believed” can refer to any kind of conversion experience. In fact, Many of us have had more than one “first” moment as we proceed from grace to grace.

I still don’t like the tune, though.

mercygate, try singing Amazing Grace to the tune “House of the Rising Sun.”

That’s what my Baptist youth group used to do. I found it hauntingly beautiful then, and I still prefer this tune with those words. Try it.

Of course, maybe you don’t like that melody either.

So then you can try the “Universal Melody”–the tune that is used with “Oh Susanna.” I swear, this tune will work with ANY lyrics, including Amazing Grace. In fact, it works really really well with Amazing Grace!

 

[Cat]

If you’re talkin’ “Catholic musical heritage” as in Ambrosian and Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Jusquin du Pres, Mozart, Beethoven, Correlli . . . OK: THAT’s music.

Later musical settings like “St. Thomas”, used for Tantum ergo are just typical hymnody for congregational singing – Catholic words but nondescript 18th century music that any Protestant hymnodist might have used as well (and did).

Other chestnuts of the pre-Vatican 2 Catholic repertory (“Faith of our Fathers”, “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, are, again, hymns anybody might have sung.

Congregational singing is a novelty that began with the Reformation but flourished in earnest in the 18th & 19th enturies among Protestants (Wesley?). And it has been TROUBLE from day one.

One of the problems with all this ghastly “Catholic” hymnody is that it has not had the opportunity to withstand the test of time. Most of it will not. The reason I tend to prefer “old” music is that it HAS been seared in the cauldron of time and passed the test.

One thing that amazes me, however, is that when publishers like GIA and OCP get hold of a Protestant hymnal and try to pick stuff for the Catholic liturgy, they frequently select what to my mind are the worst tunes: “The Ash Grove,” and “Sing of Mary,” are two that come to mind. “Go Tell It on the Mountain” and “Were you There” are two more I would relegate to the youth group campfire.

I think you have hit the nail square on with this post by bringing up the subject of “appropriateness for the occasion.”

I would be willing to concede that there are hymns, songs, and spiritual songs that are probably not appropriate for Mass, even an NO Mass.

Now I do like rock settings at a Life Teen Mass. But most Masses are not Life Teen Masses.

The question is, who decides which music is not appropriate for Mass? Isn’t it true that these decisions are to be made by the bishop and his priests? As long as there is no official “Arbitrater of Sacred Mass Music” office at the Vatican, these decisions are to be made by the local authorities, aren’t they?

But back to the idea of appropriateness. The problem is, some people think that sacred music that is inappropriate for Mass is NEVER appropriate for Christians. And I disagree with that.

I believe in “Campfire Music.” In fact, that’s what I call them: camp songs. These are songs that are perfect for retreats, campouts, youth gatherings, adult Bible studies, parties, dinners, children’s school programs, VBS, or while you clean the house or workout or change the oil in the car. These songs are often fun, lively, involve actions or motions, and sometimes even including some shouting or dancing (don’t try the dancing songs while you’re changin the oil!)

I think we need to be careful not to condemn really good songs. Instead, we should make wise decisions about the appropriateness of songs for various events.