Protestant hymns?

[mercygate]

Exactly! Explain to me how Handel and Bach offend the Catholic Faith? Bach’s Mass in B Minor, anyone? Handel’s Zadok the Priest?

Heh, heh. Wasn’t “Zadok the Priest” written for the coronation of George II? Godless, blackhearted, Protestant heretic! Who can abide it!

And whatever can we do about Byrd and Tallis, who wrote for whichever church was in favor with the monarch of the moment?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Heh, heh. Wasn’t “Zadok the Priest” written for the coronation of George II? Godless, blackhearted, Protestant heretic! Who can abide it!

And whatever can we do about Byrd and Tallis, who wrote for whichever church was in favor with the monarch of the moment?

Pitch ‘em! Bring on “Sing a New Church” and “City of God!” I’m feelin’ the need for something EXCLUSIVELY Catholic, something that WE ALONE have given to the world. And I’m sure the world thanks us.

 

[Cat]

Pitch ‘em! Bring on “Sing a New Church” and “City of God!” I’m feelin’ the need for something EXCLUSIVELY Catholic, something that WE ALONE have given to the world. And I’m sure the world thanks us.

In the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, the “bad” hymnwriter is the founder of the denomination, A.B. Simpson.

His hymns are truly dreadful (at least, the melodies. The words are sublime).

But you know–who the heck cares? Sometimes something that is not beautiful is beautiful because it belongs to YOU. Think of all the men who insist on keeping and wearing that 20 year-old football jersey. And think of some of the “heirlooms” in your home that frighten cats, they’re so ugly. But they belong to YOU and your family, so they are cherished.

BTW, I like City of God. I think it’s cool. I love the imagery.

 

[mercygate]

In the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, the “bad” hymnwriter is the founder of the denomination, A.B. Simpson.

His hymns are truly dreadful (at least, the melodies. The words are sublime).

But you know–who the heck cares? Sometimes something that is not beautiful is beautiful because it belongs to YOU. Think of all the men who insist on keeping and wearing that 20 year-old football jersey. And think of some of the “heirlooms” in your home that frighten cats, they’re so ugly. But they belong to YOU and your family, so they are cherished.

BTW, I like City of God. I think it’s cool. I love the imagery.

A thing is not beautiful because it belongs to me. Possession plays no part at all in an objective assessment. While I cherish the popsicle stick box DD made for me when she was six, and I keep it always on my desk, never in my worst dream would I imagine that it is either objectively beautiful or suitable for public display.

 

[latinmass]

The Catholic Church has a knack for holding fast to that which is good, even from outsiders. That’s probably why my copy of the Liturgy of the Hours has hymns in the back that were written by people like Martin Luther, Welsley, etc.

I’m just curious when did it become acceptable to put things by Martin Luther in Catholic publications? I’m sure you are aware of the most notorious heretic in Church history. I don’t think Luther was thought of so fondly shortly after the de-formation. I’m sure the devil is laughing that the effects of what Luther did to the Church creating this heretical community that has spawned the world is reduced to Catholics now defending his writings in the Church’s publications. This is disgraceful. Re-think what is going on.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m just curious when did it become acceptable to put things by Martin Luther in Catholic publications? I’m sure you are aware of the most notorious heretic in Church history. I don’t think Luther was thought of so fondly shortly after the de-formation. I’m sure the devil is laughing that the effects of what Luther did to the Church creating this heretical community that has spawned the world is reduced to Catholics now defending his writings in the Church’s publications. This is disgraceful. Re-think what is going on.

Yes, Luther was an arch-heretic, but even a dead clock can tell the time accurately twice a day. I’m curious, in the following hymn, what precisely do you disagree with?

1. A mighty fortress is our God,
   a bulwark never failing;
   our helper he amid the flood
   of mortal ills prevaling.
   For still our ancient foe
   doth seek to work us woe;
   his craft and power are great,
   and armed with cruel hate,
   on earth is not his equal.
2. Did we in our own strength confide,
   our striving would be losing,
   were not the right man on our side,
   the man of God’s own choosing.
   Dost ask who that may be?
   Christ Jesus, it is he;
   Lord Sabbaoth, his name,
   from age to age the same,
   and he must win the battle.
3. And though this world, with devils filled,
   should threaten to undo us,
   we will not fear, for God hath willed
   his truth to triumph through us.
   The Prince of Darkness grim,
   we tremble not for him;
   his rage we can endure,
   for lo, his doom is sure;
   one little word shall fell him.
4. That word above all earthly powers,
   no thanks to them, abideth;
   the Spirit and the gifts are ours,
   thru him who with us sideth.
   Let goods and kindred go,
   this mortal life also;
   the body they may kill;
   God’s truth abideth still;
   his kingdom is forever.

 

[mercygate]

I’m just curious when did it become acceptable to put things by Martin Luther in Catholic publications? I’m sure you are aware of the most notorious heretic in Church history. I don’t think Luther was thought of so fondly shortly after the de-formation. I’m sure the devil is laughing that the effects of what Luther did to the Church creating this heretical community that has spawned the world is reduced to Catholics now defending his writings in the Church’s publications. This is disgraceful. Re-think what is going on.

Even Origen and Tertullian, who died in heresy, are still valued as two of the greatest theologians and witnesses to the Faith of the early Church.

The Church tries not to toss the baby out with the bathwater. (Well hardly ever).

 

[ibkc]

Yes, Luther was an arch-heretic, but even a dead clock can tell the time accurately twice a day. I’m curious, in the following hymn, what precisely do you disagree with?

Hymns by the Wesley brothers? Beautiful. Martin Luther rallying his flock against Tradition? Just say no.

I was taught (as a non-Catholic child) that that hymn was referring to the Church as the Devil and that it was a big “rah rah go us!” pro-reformer hymn in the years following the Protestant revolution. And here on CAF, one particularly outspoken anti-Catholic bait-n-basher who hangs out on the debate forum has used the title of this song as a thread title recently. I was honestly very shocked to see it in the Gather hymnal.

 

[elgar]

I’m just curious when did it become acceptable to put things by Martin Luther in Catholic publications? I’m sure you are aware of the most notorious heretic in Church history. I don’t think Luther was thought of so fondly shortly after the de-formation. I’m sure the devil is laughing that the effects of what Luther did to the Church creating this heretical community that has spawned the world is reduced to Catholics now defending his writings in the Church’s publications. This is disgraceful. Re-think what is going on.

Martin Luther’s hymns and other protestants crept in over 40 years ago with the novus ordo Mass. As I said earlier, I think there was a sincere attempt to expose Catholics to some solid singable hymns, but it was short circuited by the “new establishment” of V2.

I don’t want to go off topic here, but I hardly think Martin Luther was the most notorious heretic in church history. Didn’t he push the church into correction by bringing about the Counter Reformation? We live in an age rife with heretics in our churches and all around us. We just don’t burn them at the stake anymore.

I have a more difficult time with pretenders like Marty Haugen. Did you know he is anything but Catholic? Go look him up on Wikopedia sometime. He’s quite the guru these days for Catholics and Lutherans. Give me Luther, the Wesleys, R.V. Williams any day of the week.

For me the bottom line isn’t whether a tune/text is Catholic or Protestant, but what is it saying. Is it biblically and doctrinally solid? Is the tune singable and does the rhythm make sense? And ALWAYS sing all the verses. Like a poem, it wouldn’t make sense to stop after 1 or 2 verses.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Hymns by the Wesley brothers? Beautiful. Martin Luther rallying his flock against Tradition? Just say no.

I was taught (as a non-Catholic child) that that hymn was referring to the Church as the Devil and that it was a big “rah rah go us!” pro-reformer hymn in the years following the Protestant revolution .

I’ve heard it was Satan Luther was talking about.

 

[latinmass]

Yes, Luther was an arch-heretic, but even a dead clock can tell the time accurately twice a day. I’m curious, in the following hymn, what precisely do you disagree with?

1. A mighty fortress is our God,
   a bulwark never failing;
   our helper he amid the flood
   of mortal ills prevaling.
   For still our ancient foe
   doth seek to work us woe;
   his craft and power are great,
   and armed with cruel hate,
   on earth is not his equal.
2. Did we in our own strength confide,
   our striving would be losing,
   were not the right man on our side,
   the man of God’s own choosing.
   Dost ask who that may be?
   Christ Jesus, it is he;
   Lord Sabbaoth, his name,
   from age to age the same,
   and he must win the battle.
3. And though this world, with devils filled,
   should threaten to undo us,
   we will not fear, for God hath willed
   his truth to triumph through us.
   The Prince of Darkness grim,
   we tremble not for him;
   his rage we can endure,
   for lo, his doom is sure;
   one little word shall fell him.
4. That word above all earthly powers,
   no thanks to them, abideth;
   the Spirit and the gifts are ours,
   thru him who with us sideth.
   Let goods and kindred go,
   this mortal life also;
   the body they may kill;
   God’s truth abideth still;
   his kingdom is forever.

I’m not trying to be difficult, but Hindus and Muslims have wonderful words as well, but they have heretical beliefs as well, yes more, but still, if one were to be converted to any of these to include to Lutheran, wouldn’t that be a shame. And it is a crying shame to allow these words in our Catholic publications.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m not trying to be difficult, but Hindus and Muslims have wonderful words as well, but they have heretical beliefs as well, yes more, but still, if one were to be converted to any of these to include to Lutheran, wouldn’t that be a shame. And it is a crying shame to allow these words in our Catholic publications.

No, that’s far too easy. I do not know of any Muslim or Hindu hymns that are incorporated into use for worship in the Christian tradition. Yes, they have false beliefs, but as Mercy pointed out, so did Origen and Turtullian. We do not reject those things about which they were RIGHT. They are part of our possession and heritage in the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, simply because they are TRUE.

 

[elgar]

I’m not trying to be difficult, but Hindus and Muslims have wonderful words as well, but they have heretical beliefs as well, yes more, but still, if one were to be converted to any of these to include to Lutheran, wouldn’t that be a shame. And it is a crying shame to allow these words in our Catholic publications.

I fail to see the controversy in those lyrics. Choosing Jesus over Satan? How bout heaven over hell? Maybe Luther is being more black and white than we are comfortable with. I would welcome words like these on the pulpit. We tend to hear next to nothing about we being sinners, Satan and hell in favor of everyone being saved. No transformation necessary. Give me that “old time religion”.

 

[latinmass]

No, that’s far too easy. I do not know of any Muslim or Hindu hymns that are incorporated into use for worship in the Christian tradition. Yes, they have false beliefs, but as Mercy pointed out, so did Origen and Turtullian. We do not reject those things about which they were RIGHT. They are part of our possession and heritage in the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, simply because they are TRUE.

I would not put Origen and Tertullian in the same class of heretic as Luther, though all were excomunicated, but if you’ll notice, there is nothing in the mass by Origen and Tertullian either, nor should there be, dying in excommunication, though good for history as you said, just history.

 

[BeansOnToast]

I myself am a big fan of Sacred Harp hymns and colonial-era hymns in general. Although the lyrics can contain doctrine straight out of Calvinist or Anabaptist teachings (and I would thus discourage the use of the music in any Catholic church, ever), the sounds and harmonies make the music into sort of a Protestant version of Gregorian Chant:
(Sample of this type of singing): ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2ckxBb222Tc

 

[Cat]

I am posting this link because I think that Michelle Arnold (the CAF Apologist) has given an excellent answer to the question about the hymn, “Amazing Grace”–

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23697

It’s a short little answer, so don’t be afraid to click on it.

It all comes down to catechesis: well-educated Catholics vs. those who really don’t have a clue what they believe.

It seems to me that rather than throwing out really good hymns, parishes should strive to improve their catechesis so that no one will be confused by the theology in these hymns, and so that everyone will understand the theology in the “higher” music forms and hymns.

And frankly, I think that if a Catholic is under-catechized and confused about their faith, hymns and chants in Latin, and hymns written in “high Queen’s English” with the flowery language of centuries ago, will NOT help these people to learn about and understand Catholic Christianity.

I know that a lot of you decry the “dumbing down of the faith.” Well, humbly thank the Lord for your intellect, but you have to accept the fact that many people in the U.S. cannot read beyond a 6th grade level (that’s what the newspapers are written in, and that’s what the Harry Potter novels are written in.)

My generation is the first “television raised” generation, and of course, Catholics my age were raised in the post Vatican II era when many parishes apparently abandoned catechesis in favor of “feel good positive thinking.”

A lot of people today have never attended an opera or a Shakespearean play, have never read any literature beyond high school homework assignments, and have never learned a foreign language beyond high school requirements.

We are not very smart.

Whether you like it or not, many of us really truly need simple things to learn. I count myself among this group.

We learn through visualization and hands-on, hence the value of some kind of “drama” in a homily–I’m not talking about a full-fledged play, but a story, a parable–these things help us learn. Also, those “hand motions” that some of you heap abuse upon are very helpful for some people to retain the message of the song.

And simple words that make theology real and understandable to us–the Lord Himself said that we need to come to Him as a child. There is no sin in being “simple.”

I know that this seems detestable in your sight because you are smarter. I ask you to try to come out of your tower and walk among the regular folks (like Jesus did). Hymns like “Amazing Grace” speak to regular folks a lot more effectively than some of the “exalted lays” that you laud.

I’m glad that you appreciate these higher things, and I hope that you will continue to strive to keep them as part of the Catholic heritage. It would be a shame to see them become extinct.

But again, I say that rather than protesting the simple, earthy hymns and labelling them incorrectly as “Protestant”–I have not yet see ANYONE prove in this thread that ANY hymns in the Catholic hymnals preach a Protestant theology–you should instead work towards developing better catechesis in your parishes so that you can raise all the rest of us up to your high level and help us to understand and appreciate the high music of the Church.

 

[ibkc]

Cat, your insistence that some of us prefer the music that we do for no other reason than we are snobby, feel we are “smarter” than others, and that we live in a “tower” - is doing nothing for your argument. Leave out the personal swipes, and your case becomes a little more reasonable. As for me, I am becoming even more interested in chant and polyphony.

 

[elgar]

Cat, your insistence that some of us prefer the music that we do for no other reason than we are snobby, feel we are “smarter” than others, and that we live in a “tower” - is doing nothing for your argument. Leave out the personal swipes, and your case becomes a little more reasonable. As for me, I am becoming even more interested in chant and polyphony.

I don’t think “snobbery” is the problem here, and I think we all need to be re-freshed on the authentic teachings of the Church in all areas. Why is it so many young people are clamouring for the Latin Mass and one would assume they wouldn’t understand the language, gestures, rituals, etc.? Look at all the teaching opportunities at hand whether led by competent clerics or laity. I would sign up in a moment. I find more snobbery coming from those who are comfortable with the bland status quo.

 

[mercygate]

I myself am a big fan of Sacred Harp hymns and colonial-era hymns in general. Although the lyrics can contain doctrine straight out of Calvinist or Anabaptist teachings (and I would thus discourage the use of the music in any Catholic church, ever), the sounds and harmonies make the music into sort of a Protestant version of Gregorian Chant:
(Sample of this type of singing): ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2ckxBb222Tc

WOW! That stuff is FANTASTIC! I think the secret is that EVERYBODY is singing. This is not a performance model.

 

[owenswain]

Nothing wrong with using Protestant-originated hymns.

Agreed in the category of all things are permissable but not all are beneficial - or up to personal preference. As a former prot minister of 20 years and relative new comer who is seeking something, dare I say it, deeper than the Nervous Ordo, I find hearing the hymns (let alone the pop culture religious choruses) that I have always heard tiresome if not troubling. That said I do find I prefer the prot rendering “such a wretch as I” in Amazing Grace over the Catholic revision. It is the fact that I was a wretch (maybe still am depending on who you ask) that makes grace Amazing.

What I cannot, on any account, stand is hearing choruses from the late 70’s and early to mid 80’s that come from and very much reflect protestantism. Gag. Even as a protestant I hadn’t sung some of them for 15 years and it’s murder now when, even without words, the music is played ahead of the Mass. Oooo, inside my head I hear the words try as much as I want not too and there I am sitting in Mass feeling old protestant fuzziness. My kids can take it either. It would be rude to put our fingers in our ears but the urge is strong.

I am weird to be sure but I really want my Catholic Church to be Catholic.