Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[O.S.Luke]

Why?

Do you have any idea what a stumbling block liquor is for many Protestants? Can you possibly understand how objectionable many Protestants (evangelical, fundamental, and Pentecostal) find alcohol use?

I am a Protestant. And we are talking about wine, not liquor.

I would venture to say that one reason why for many years, Protestants did not associate much with Catholics or consider them true Christians was because they drank alcohol socially.

This is probably American bias. Protestants in other countries do not find alcohol objectionable. The rifts between Protestant and Catholics are theological, not viticultural!

I still do not like to attend Catholic socials because of the use of alcohol. I am not saying that it’s a sin. I’m saying that I find it objectionable and that it is highly unlikely that I will ever fully accept the use of alcohol by anyone, but especially by Christians.

Obesity is quickly surpassing alcoholism in terms of health costs, societal costs, and the effect it has on families. I think I’d rather have a keg of beer at a church social than a pot-luck dinner; you can always tell someone that they’ve had too much to drink and that they can go home. Ever try to tell someone that they have too much food on their plate?

Gluttony, drunkenness… both deadly sins. Moderation is key.

I don’t have a problem using grape juice at the Eucharist - it’s wine of a sort. But I think it ‘sugar coats’ things. We should use real wine, and REAL bread (not styrofoam wafers). Wine should taste like wine, and bread should look (and taste) like real bread.

O+

 

[joeyman13]

Well, as a 13 year old Protestant considering Catholicism, I am guessing because while grape juice can be consumed by all ages, wine can only be consumed by adults. But, while I am here, I would like to ask a question on the Catholic mass. Why do Catholics beleive that Jesus actually comes down into the bread and wine, and, if I beleive it is only symbolic, could I still become a Catholic? Please let me know as this is one of the main things that will influence my desicion wether to join the church or not! Love in Christ, Joey G.
(P.S. I have heard of this guy name Jack Chick- can you tell me a litttle more about him? I mean, he is a little extreme with his views on Gays and Rock Music, but some stuff he said about Catholics and Mormons kind of makes sense! Why should I not beleive him?)

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I will explain, just after I point out that
“protestants” are not one single group that has the same practices everywhere!!!
ahem…just getting tired of pointing that out time and again…

Exactly why I said “The Protestants I’ve spoken to…”

Now, those who practise sometimes point out (if they refer to the Scriptures at all…) that in NT times, “wine” described a whole lot of things - including what we call wine, but also plain grape juice.

In the Bible, Old and New Testaments, Wine has always meant Wine. There was no such thing a “grape juice” that we know of today where alcohol is removed or prevented for turning into alcohol. Recall numerous passages where it talks about getting drunk off of wine…Noah after drinking new wine made from grapes immediately after existing the Ark and sacrificing to God in Thanksgiving. Wine, is Wine is Wine!

I, as some might have guessed from my earlier posts, reject that practise, and the argument, as a plain and simple attempt to justify biblically what was not instituted because of the Bible.
We know how the Passover Meal was celebrated, and that was with wine - as in WINE, not grape juice. So I reject that fallacy, and does not want to be pigeonholed with these people…

Good! I’m glad you have a Biblical perspective when it comes to the elimate used in Holy Communion…now if only you could believe Jesus in John 6! And consequently join the Catholic Church so you could truly receive Jesus into your Heart and into your Belly every day of the week!

 

[LutheranDK]

“Good! I’m glad you have a Biblical perspective when it comes to the elimate used in Holy Communion…now if only you could believe Jesus in John 6! And consequently join the Catholic Church so you could truly receive Jesus into your Heart and into your Belly every day of the week!”

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
There’s a word for this kind of post, but appearently I’m not allowed to use it (and should appearently just take it…), so I’m just going to not say anything to it, else than the fact that you have no basis for saying what I believe.
I believe that the Bible is the word of God, and therefore I also believe in John 6!

Is this kind of “I’ll just repeat myself over and over and over without ever giving any single argument in defense of my position and hope my opponent is dumb enough not to notice”-tactic taught in RC sunday schools, or where did SMM pick it up from? There are smart RCs outthere, who must be curling their toes at this kind of “reasoning”…

 

[geometer]

We know because of the rest of the New Testament writings and all the Early Christians writings that Christ meant what He said, that the elements of Bread and Wine become His actual Body and Blood.

Well, I believe that this is where they become miguided. Jesus was very strict with regard to the commandments. If he actually allowed eating of human flesh and blood then he would be relaxing the commandments against those acts. So, according to his own words he himself would become the least in the kingdom of heaven.

So, I believe he was just waxing romantic, he wanted to be remembered while people relaxed drinking and eating. That is what they actually did when followers of the way met. They ate a lot of bread and drank a lot of wine, and thought about the things that he had said in relation to the judaism of their time.

 

[LutheranDK]

Well, as a 13 year old Protestant considering Catholicism, I am guessing because while grape juice can be consumed by all ages, wine can only be consumed by adults. But, while I am here, I would like to ask a question on the Catholic mass. Why do Catholics beleive that Jesus actually comes down into the bread and wine, and, if I beleive it is only symbolic, could I still become a Catholic? Please let me know as this is one of the main things that will influence my desicion wether to join the church or not! Love in Christ, Joey G.
(P.S. I have heard of this guy name Jack Chick- can you tell me a litttle more about him? I mean, he is a little extreme with his views on Gays and Rock Music, but some stuff he said about Catholics and Mormons kind of makes sense! Why should I not beleive him?)

Hi Joey!

Well, a lot of questions there

1: It’s not only the RC church that teaches that the elements of Holy Communion become the actual body and blood of Christ upon consecration. The Lutheran Church also teaches this biblical fact. I’m not sure about the Presbyterians and Anglicans, but my gut feeling is that they do too.

2: If you choose to become RC, you will have to believe EVERYTHING it teaches. Including the Real Presense.

3: Jack Chick is a paranoid madman, who you should not waste any more time on. He’s making stuff up as he goes along, and has no insight whatsoever in the Bible (except for his favorite verses, which he then twists to mean whatever the hillbilly he wants them to mean), or in the RC church.
I can’t stress this enough: Stay clear of that nutcase. He’ll mess with your head. I know, because when I had just come to Faith, he came pretty close to messing with mine. I thank God that He saved me from the follies of Jack Chick…

In Him

LDK

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Well, as a 13 year old Protestant considering Catholicism, I am guessing because while grape juice can be consumed by all ages, wine can only be consumed by adults. But, while I am here, I would like to ask a question on the Catholic mass. Why do Catholics beleive that Jesus actually comes down into the bread and wine, and, if I beleive it is only symbolic, could I still become a Catholic? Please let me know as this is one of the main things that will influence my desicion wether to join the church or not! Love in Christ, Joey G.
(P.S. I have heard of this guy name Jack Chick- can you tell me a litttle more about him? I mean, he is a little extreme with his views on Gays and Rock Music, but some stuff he said about Catholics and Mormons kind of makes sense! Why should I not beleive him?)

Hi Joeyman13!

Welcome! I have a daughter your age.

To clear something up for you…everyone can receive the Holy Eucharist, Body and Blood if they are Catholic and have already made their First Communion, not just adults. Once the Wine is Consecrated, it only maintains the appearance & taste of Wine, but IS actually the True Blood of Our Lord Jesus, the Blood that washes away all our sins!

You should believe Jesus when He revealed this difficult Truth to everyone in John chapter 6. I want you to read the entire Chapter, so get out your Bible.

Notice how in the beginning, Jesus multiplied the Loaves and the Fishes to feed thousands of men, not to mention all the women and children there who ate the bread and fish also. The Bible tells us about this miracle immediately before revealing that we are to eat Jesus’ Body and drink His Blood so that we know that He has the power to multiply Himself to make this possible. One lady I spoke with years ago, asked me “Well, even if it is true that you Catholics really eat His Body and drink His Blood - you wouldn’t be able to do it now because after 2000 years all his Body and Blood would be all gone!” Then I showed her this part of Chapter 6, the beginning, and she was amazed and couldn’t speak any longer, because she realized that if Jesus said we had to do it, then He had the power to make it actually possible.

Next read where Jesus says we have to eat His Body and Drink His Blood. I want you to have a notebook and pen handy and keep track of how many times Jesus says to eat His Body and Drink His Blood and that His Body and Blood are real food.

Then pay attention to what the people who’d be following Jesus Christ up to this point say and do. Notice how they walk away from Jesus, because “it’s a hard saying” meaning it’s too difficult for them to believe Jesus in this matter. Now quickly pay attention - did Jesus call them back? Did He say, “Hey get back here, you misunderstood Me, you don’t really have to eat Me!” No, He didn’t, did He. Instead, He turned to His 12 and asked them if they would leave also. You will see that all 12 stayed with him, but Judas left Him in his heart and over this issue, he decided to he was going to betray Jesus.

Only the True Followers of Jesus as written in the Bible in John 6 stayed with Jesus and believed Him that Jesus was going to somehow give them His Body and Blood to eat and drink for eternal life.

If you are a True Follower of Jesus, then you too will believe and will become Catholic so you can do as Jesus commanded and you will become a partaker of His Divine Nature 2 Peter 1:4.

To answer your question, No. You should not become a Catholic if you do not believe Jesus’ words that He give us Himself to eat and drink in the Holy Eucharist. But I think that you will believe when you read John 6 for yourself with your own eyes.

Jack Chick has been a hater of the True Jesus and His Church and we pray for Jack that he will come to know and love Jesus and His Church. Jack Chick has been debunked many times over. It’s not worth your time to read his lies, time better spent praying or reading the Bible or the Catechism. If you have a particular question that has arisen from reading one of his tracks, you may want to start a thread in Apologetics so you can get the answers you need to put your heart at rest.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Well, I believe that this is where they become miguided. Jesus was very strict with regard to the commandments. If he actually allowed eating of human flesh and blood then he would be relaxing the commandments against those acts. So, according to his own words he himself would become the least in the kingdom of heaven.

So, I believe he was just waxing romantic, he wanted to be remembered while people relaxed drinking and eating. That is what they actually did when followers of the way met. They ate a lot of bread and drank a lot of wine, and thought about the things that he had said in relation to the judaism of their time.

Really? In your estimation St. Paul, although taught directly from Jesus Himself before becoming blinded, had become misguided - which would nullify 50% of the New Testament that is written by St. Paul the Apostle of Jesus.

You think Jesus was being romantic when He, as recorded so clearly in John 6, repeated again and again that we are to eat His Body and Drink His Blood?

You have truly lost your mind. We will all pray for you. You will learn at some point that Jesus is God and He can do whatever He wants and He can have us eat His Body and Drink His Blood under the form of Bread and Wine if he wants.

 

[geometer]

You think Jesus was being romantic when He, as recorded so clearly in John 6, repeated again and again that we are to eat His Body and Drink His Blood?

Yes of course because that how it was taken by his original followers. His followers sat and ate bread and drank wine when they remembered him as a teacher. His disciples were left under the authority of Rabbis. Read Acts.

 

[Catherine_S]

Grape juice was probably the nearest alternative to wine and so they probably went with that. This is mere speculation and I am open to correction if I am incorrect.

Yeast on the outside and sugar on the inside of a grape is a divine idea! All one has to do is* crush a grape** and it goes** it’s God given** course. *
Something underhanded has to take place, such as pasteruization to* prevent** grapes from going there God given course and becoming wine!*
The process of* pasteruization** was not used on grape juice in the USA until Prohibition, a process put on the market by the Welch family. Up until that time all Methodists churches celebrated the Lord’s supper with wine. Is it not odd*** that one of the major bishops at the time of the ruling out of wine at the Eucharist,** was a chap named Welch?** Same family, same market .

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Yes of course because that how it was taken by his original followers. His followers sat and ate bread and drank wine when they remembered him as a teacher. His disciples were left under the authority of Rabbis. Read Acts.

I’ve read Acts, you’ve failed to read Chapter 6 of John’s Gospel because Jesus’ followers **did not **take it romantically…His followers *left Him *over the issue of Jesus telling them that they need to eat His Body and drink His Blood. When they left Jesus, Jesus did not call them back and tell them they misunderstood Him, rather Jesus then turned to his 12 and asked them if they would also leave Him over this issue - they didn’t, except Judas who it is recorded in John 6 left Jesus over this issue in His heart, but remained with Him in order to betray Him.

By not believing that Jesus meant what He said, you are placing yourself either with the former followers of Jesus who No Longer Follow Christ or you place yourself with Judas who Betrayed Christ.

I choose, along with all Catholics and Orthodox Christians, to follow the rest of the 12 Apostles example and stay with Jesus and humbly eat His Body and Drink His Blood as Jesus commanded.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Yeast on the outside and sugar on the inside of a grape is a divine idea! All one has to do is* crush a grape*** and it goes** it’s God given** course.
Something underhanded has to take place, such as pasteruization to** prevent** grapes from going there God given course.
The process of* pasteruization*** was not used on grape juice in the USA until Prohibition, a process put on the market by the* Welch*** family. Up until that time all Methodists churches celebrated the Lord’s supper with wine.
*Is it *not odd that one of the major bishops at the time of the ruling out of wine at the Eucharist, was a chap named Welch? Same family, same market .

Thanks! That is so cool! Love when it all comes together like that.

The choice is clear people:

**Follow the Welch Family for their financial gain or Follow Christ, His Catholic Church and His Catholic Bible for your eternal gain of Salvation! **

 

[Cat]

It’s a sad worldview. These Protestants don’t believe in the Real Presence, so they think alcohol is all downside and no upside. They can’t think of why anyone should drink wine because for them, Communion means nothing. Also, it shows they have eyes only for this life and not the life to come. Also, as Belloc says, alcoholism would end (and speech and poetry improve) if we restricted ourselves to drinks existing before the Reformation, because of course the concentrated drinks of the industrial age are hard for most to handle.

Even your own post has strange biases in it. You don’t account for how alcohol is a gift to the poor (Proverbs 31.) You wish punishments on hapless drunk drivers that really should be reserved for premeditating serial murderers, etc. You confuse alcohol being present in 50% of accidents with alcohol causing 50% of accidents, and with alcohol having a 50% chance of causing an accident! I guess you are trying to paint the picture realistically, but it’s an unreasonable and doctrinally poor picture.

Hapless drunk drivers? Oh, dear. Unless someone forced them to take those drinks and then forced them to drive while under the influence, they are not “hapless.”

I would say hapless victims.

 

[mercygate]

Well, whatever he meant, it was some kind of romantic ascertion. Considering the way it is stated in scripture, how do we know that he was not saying that his blood was to become wine and his body to become bread?:juggle:

Could you please explain “romantic”?

“The Bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The bread IS flesh.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Thanks! That is so cool! Love when it all comes together like that.

The choice is clear people:

**Follow the Welch Family for their financial gain or Follow Christ, His Catholic Church and His Catholic Bible for your eternal gain of Salvation! **

The problem is, this is not factual. Another urban legend…

Welch was never a bishop - that’s an urban legend (the Wesleyan Church does not have bishops). Welch was a dentist and, for a short time, a Wesleyan clergyman (an evangelical sect that had separated from the Methodist Episcopal Church). His product was originally called Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.

O+

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Hapless drunk drivers? Oh, dear. Unless someone forced them to take those drinks and then forced them to drive while under the influence, they are not “hapless.”

I would say hapless victims.

I guess you don’t know anyone who has done it. The driver is blamed for being a fool, and anyone who could have intervened shares in that. But it is so different from a gun homicide or battery, where anger or hatred cause the death and injury. Then there is much less pity.

 

[jblake]

joeyman13;:

P.S. I have heard of this guy name Jack Chick- can you tell me a little more about him?

His artwork isn’t bad. His theology is shall we say… He preaches what he believes to be true.

but some stuff he said about Catholics and Mormons kind of makes sense! Why should I not believe him?)

Any position that one wishes to espouse, can be spun to appear to be reasonable, logical, and make sense. Furthermore, that position can also be represented as being the middle of two extremes.

jonathon

 

[joeyman13]

Hi Joeyman13!

Welcome! I have a daughter your age.

To clear something up for you…everyone can receive the Holy Eucharist, Body and Blood if they are Catholic and have already made their First Communion, not just adults. Once the Wine is Consecrated, it only maintains the appearance & taste of Wine, but IS actually the True Blood of Our Lord Jesus, the Blood that washes away all our sins!

You should believe Jesus when He revealed this difficult Truth to everyone in John chapter 6. I want you to read the entire Chapter, so get out your Bible.

Notice how in the beginning, Jesus multiplied the Loaves and the Fishes to feed thousands of men, not to mention all the women and children there who ate the bread and fish also. The Bible tells us about this miracle immediately before revealing that we are to eat Jesus’ Body and drink His Blood so that we know that He has the power to multiply Himself to make this possible. One lady I spoke with years ago, asked me “Well, even if it is true that you Catholics really eat His Body and drink His Blood - you wouldn’t be able to do it now because after 2000 years all his Body and Blood would be all gone!” Then I showed her this part of Chapter 6, the beginning, and she was amazed and couldn’t speak any longer, because she realized that if Jesus said we had to do it, then He had the power to make it actually possible.

Next read where Jesus says we have to eat His Body and Drink His Blood. I want you to have a notebook and pen handy and keep track of how many times Jesus says to eat His Body and Drink His Blood and that His Body and Blood are real food.

Then pay attention to what the people who’d be following Jesus Christ up to this point say and do. Notice how they walk away from Jesus, because “it’s a hard saying” meaning it’s too difficult for them to believe Jesus in this matter. Now quickly pay attention - did Jesus call them back? Did He say, “Hey get back here, you misunderstood Me, you don’t really have to eat Me!” No, He didn’t, did He. Instead, He turned to His 12 and asked them if they would leave also. You will see that all 12 stayed with him, but Judas left Him in his heart and over this issue, he decided to he was going to betray Jesus.

Only the True Followers of Jesus as written in the Bible in John 6 stayed with Jesus and believed Him that Jesus was going to somehow give them His Body and Blood to eat and drink for eternal life.

If you are a True Follower of Jesus, then you too will believe and will become Catholic so you can do as Jesus commanded and you will become a partaker of His Divine Nature 2 Peter 1:4.

To answer your question, No. You should not become a Catholic if you do not believe Jesus’ words that He give us Himself to eat and drink in the Holy Eucharist. But I think that you will believe when you read John 6 for yourself with your own eyes.

Jack Chick has been a hater of the True Jesus and His Church and we pray for Jack that he will come to know and love Jesus and His Church. Jack Chick has been debunked many times over. It’s not worth your time to read his lies, time better spent praying or reading the Bible or the Catechism. If you have a particular question that has arisen from reading one of his tracks, you may want to start a thread in Apologetics so you can get the answers you need to put your heart at rest.

I know I can get the Bible for free online, already have one, but what about the Catechism? Or is it possible to get a Catholic bible with just the books the protestant one doesnt have?

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I know I can get the Bible for free online, already have one, but what about the Catechism? Or is it possible to get a Catholic bible with just the books the protestant one doesnt have?

If you really intend to read them, I’m sure a bigger Catholic Church around you will give those things to you for free. They have done that around here for me. So have the Greek Orthodox.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I know I can get the Bible for free online, already have one, but what about the Catechism? Or is it possible to get a Catholic bible with just the books the protestant one doesnt have?

The Catholic Church’s official website: www.vatican.va has both the English Translation of the Catholic Bible and the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here is a direct link to access both: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

The 7 books that the Protestants have removed from the Catholic Bible are: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch - all these books are included in the Bible in the link I listed above. Tobit, Judith and Sirach are 3 of my overall favorite books of the Bible.