Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[broski234]

N It seems no one tells jokes anymore…

I agree. That’s kind of sad isn’t it?

 

[broski234]

First of all wine is wine is wine the process for wine making has changes very little over the centuries. Sine I was nor any one here was there to run alcohol level test on the wine 2000 years ago I would say that the the levela are close if not higher than now.

Second there was no such thing as grape juice till the late 1800 early 1900’s as it was a Methodist minister Welch “welches grape juice” that invented it to serve to his dinner guess because he did not think people should drink alcohol.

Third "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. " (1 Timothy 5:23)

So we have Christ turning water to wine and St Paul saying to drink wine.

As for the sake of children it is only the puritanical stance of the USA that would see a problem with it. Also we must remember than though it appears still as wine it is in reality the Blood of Christ. So of no harm to the Child nor the Alcoholic.

Also to address the poster on the receiving just the Body does not the Body contain blood and like wise the blood contains the the body so you receive both even if only under one form or the other.

Good points Scott:thumbsup:

 

[broski234]

Yes of course because that how it was taken by his original followers. His followers sat and ate bread and drank wine when they remembered him as a teacher. His disciples were left under the authority of Rabbis. Read Acts.

Well, we have a little problem here with your statement. The Last Supper was not instituted in John 6. It was exactly one year before Christ instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper. In John 6, Jesus gives His Eucharistic discourse on passover, which one year later, He instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper on passover. So in John 6, they ate no bread and drank wine and the original followers found this teaching “too hard” to accept and no longer followed Him. Only a few remained. So indeed, this was a hard teaching and they most definitely took Him literally.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Good points Scott:thumbsup:

Thank you. I thought no one could read my post as those that disagree seem to ignore them. I also find it funny that these are the one that want to put a literal meaning to ever verse in the Bible except the ones that say this it was wine and Jesus turned them into his Body and Blood.

 

[mystagogia]

To the question of why some Protestants use grape juice, here’s my understanding as a life-long Baptist (now in RCIA):

Baptists of the old-timey sort had severe restrictions, considering all forms of dancing to be sinful, for example, as well as all forms of drinking. Think Prohibition and Carrie Nation. Some churches became so severe that even singing in church was thought scandalous. Grape juice was substitued for wine accordingly.

When I would ask Baptist leaders today why Jesus drank wine but we drank grape juice, it was explained to me, with regularity, that in Jesus’ time sanitation was laking and many things such as water were more dangerous to drink than wine. However, with today’s technology, the need for drinking wine has abated and we can now safely drink more sober tonic.

Of course, Baptists view Communion as a largely symbolic happening, stripped of the sacramental importance of the Catholic Eucharist or even of their own baptismal rite.

Much regarding this practice is clearly contradictory and confused, but nevertheless that’s the history of how we got here and now have this practice that carries on with its own force of tradition no matter how curiously formed.

I must say that this point regarding Holy Communion was in fact the breaking point that led to my abandonment of Southern Baptist Church and conversion to Catholicism. I retain a great many loved friends and family members in the Baptist Church who are earnest Christians of wonderful spirit and devotion. Many of whom know the Bible backwards and forwards and take every word of it as the literal and inspired Word of God. Except the stuff regarding the blood and body of Christ. Most curiously that, of all things, is the part they’ll take as symbolic, and ironically it’s their liturgy that’ll lead them to take up this position.

In a nutshell that’s my experience with it. Yours may vary, of course.

 

[smuglymx]

Your funny!

Jesus made the wine and made it strong, but left the people their free will to either drink too much or just enough.

Interesting because the reason Jesus made water into wine is because they ran out so they must have been drinking quite a bit and he made 5 pitchers full. And these were not small pitchers either because they were used for purification purposes. But thats beside the point. I do not know why some protestant churches use grape juice and some do.

 

[Ghoti]

The Catholic Church’s official website: www.vatican.va has both the English Translation of the Catholic Bible and the English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here is a direct link to access both: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

The 7 books that the Protestants have removed from the Catholic Bible are: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch - all these books are included in the Bible in the link I listed above. Tobit, Judith and Sirach are 3 of my overall favorite books of the Bible.

And don’t forget the “additions to” (or “deletions from”, if you will) the Books of Esther and Daniel.

 

[George_Everson]

Hi George,

Thanks for sharing!

Now that you know why Protestants of today do not use wine as Christ taught us for Holy Communion, has it caused you to question remaining in your Protestant church that is not Biblically based, but rather based on a man’s ideas in the 19th Century? Are you considering attending a more Biblical Based Church like for example Holy Cross Catholic Church?

Didn’t the Anglican Church in Lynchburg become an Orthodox Church? Even the Orthodox Church uses the element of wine for Holy Communion and has always taught and still teaches in the True Presence of Jesus, Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist.

Before I started attending my present congregation, I truly thought of converting to Catholicism. However, this is not the time (nor the discussion thread) to go into the whys and why nots of my decision.

The congregation I am in now is a very caring and biblical congregation (grape juice vs. wine notwithstanding). I have visited Episcopal and Lutheran congregations where wine is used and have had no problem partaking from either. When Jesus spoke of the “fruit of the vine” at the Last Supper, it suffices that He knew what he meant. He was also wise enough (being fully God and fully man) to know how we silly humans would get things mixed up down through the years. I believe the sacrament is a sacrament (as do most of the Reformed church) and I accept the grace offered in the form offered. A hungry man does not question whether the bread offered him is white or whole wheat, neither do I (coming as a beggar to the Lord’s Table) question whether the cup is grape juice or wine.

In Christ,

George A. Everson
Lynchburg, Virginia

 

[khutcheson]

I guess you don’t know anyone who has done it. The driver is blamed for being a fool, and anyone who could have intervened shares in that. But it is so different from a gun homicide or battery, where anger or hatred cause the death and injury. Then there is much less pity.

Are you seriously defending drunk driving? Wow.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Thanks! That is so cool! Love when it all comes together like that.

The choice is clear people:

**Follow the Welch Family for their financial gain or Follow Christ, His Catholic Church and His Catholic Bible for your eternal gain of Salvation! **

So no acknowledgment that your statement is historically and factually false, based on urban legend and not fact?

 

[Howie01]

Catholics stick soley to the Traditions of God, not the Traditions of Man, but Protestants, save a couple of its sects, cleave tightly to a Tradition of Men by using Grape Juice rather than Wine.

When did God inspire the apostles that His old Tradition of loaves of bread broken into pieces for the eucharist, would be switched to the new, and innovative Tradition of circular hosts?

And when did God inspire the apostles that His new Innovation of circular hosts should include these particular sizes, or any other size?

SingleMomMonica:

I could see how in the Protestant Churches people who are Alcoholics would have to abstain from the Communion Wine (if Wine is actually used) because it has not been consecrated by a real priest and therefore is still just the Wine it appears to be and is Not the Blood of Our Lord Jesus. In the Catholic Church is not and never has been an issue.

ISTM that you’re saying consecrated wine contains no alcohol; is that correct?

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The innovation of first water for communion and then grape juice was a protestant innovation of the 19th century.

The koine greek word for wine, often translated 'fruit of the vine" means a beverage of fermented grapes that can intoxifyif taken to excess–it is used by a conservative estimate, exclusively so 100,000+ times in koine (and attic and homeric) greek documents outside of scripture

The idea that “fruit of the vine” means unfermented grape juice, or reconstituted raison paste is a position found no where else but prohibitionist scholars

 

[Howie01]

Lion of Narnia:

The innovation of first water for communion and then grape juice was a protestant innovation of the 19th century.

Lion of Narnia, what do you think about what I asked SingleMomMonica: when did God inspire the apostles to change from using a loaf of bread, broken by the celebrant, to the Innovation of circular hosts?

Also, when did God inspire the apostles to change to all of these Innovative sizes of circular hosts?

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Are you seriously defending drunk driving? Wow.

I’m defending it from its “worse than premeditated murder” status it seems to enjoy these days, especially because it’s a crime committed more often by the poor and they don’t have any idea how to defend themselves in court, so it ruins their lives especially their ability to get jobs, which they need more than wealthier people. People love to kick those poor guys when they’re already down. It’s a crime of foolishness and negligence, not of malice, greed or hatred.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Lion of Narnia, what do you think about what I asked SingleMomMonica: when did God inspire the apostles to change from using a loaf of bread, broken by the celebrant, to the Innovation of circular hosts?

Also, when did God inspire the apostles to change to all of these Innovative sizes of circular hosts?

More than a little bit of a red herring question. But I’ll bite

The pre-consecration meterial to be used is wheaten bread The Church has NO wriggle room on that–see some numerous threads regarding those people who have severe celiac disease (gluten intolerance) and cannot consme the Host.

The Western tradition of the Catholic Church uses unleavened bread-wafers–in line with the fact Jesus and the disciples would have been celebrating the meal in the Upper room with unleavened flat bread–MATZOH’s. The Eastern Rites and the Eastern Orthodox from their traditions use leavened (risen) loaves to derive the consecrated portion they call 'The Lamb"

Likewise, the pre-consecrated Blood MUST be fermented wine, traditionally cut with water as would have been done universally in the Mediterranian world before drinking–a ratio of 3 to 1 (water to wine) or 4 to 1 was common

Sorry from a prior pronouncement, but "New Wine’ is NOT low alcohol content. Fermentation rates from yeast are pretty constant–2–3% content would be achieved w/in the first two DAYS–and would be so bubbly and yeasty as to be VERY unpleasant–one gets to 6-7% content w/in 3 weeks, and full potency of 12% is about 2 months–“New Wine” is anything from 2 months to about a year old.

 

[Howie01]

Lion of Narnia:

More than a little bit of a red herring question. But I’ll bite

The pre-consecration meterial to be used is wheaten bread The Church has NO wriggle room on that–see some numerous threads regarding those people who have severe celiac disease (gluten intolerance) and cannot consme the Host.

The Western tradition of the Catholic Church uses unleavened bread-wafers–in line with the fact Jesus and the disciples would have been celebrating the meal in the Upper room with unleavened flat bread–MATZOH’s. The Eastern Rites and the Eastern Orthodox from their traditions use leavened (risen) loaves to derive the consecrated portion they call 'The Lamb"

Likewise, the pre-consecrated Blood MUST be fermented wine, traditionally cut with water as would have been done universally in the Mediterranian world before drinking–a ratio of 3 to 1 (water to wine) or 4 to 1 was common

Sorry from a prior pronouncement, but "New Wine’ is NOT low alcohol content. Fermentation rates from yeast are pretty constant–2–3% content would be achieved w/in the first two DAYS–and would be so bubbly and yeasty as to be VERY unpleasant–one gets to 6-7% content w/in 3 weeks, and full potency of 12% is about 2 months–“New Wine” is anything from 2 months to about a year old.

And a bit more of a red herring than you’re able to handle, it seems.

You’ve not answered my questions, but instead, have stated the differing traditions of different churches.

Thanks anyway. I’ll re-post my questions for SingleMomMonica:

…when did God inspire the apostles to change from using a loaf of bread, broken by the celebrant, to the Innovation of circular hosts?

Also, when did God inspire the apostles to change to all of these Innovative sizes of circular hosts?

 

[LutheranDK]

And a bit more of a red herring than you’re able to handle, it seems.

You’ve not answered my questions, but instead, have stated the differing traditions of different churches.

Thanks anyway. I’ll re-post my questions for SingleMomMonica:

1: If you’re thinking a “loaf of bread” like the garden variety white bread you can pick up at a bakery, you need to think again.
We know for a fact that the bread used at the Last Supper was unleavened, and THAT is what’s important. The form and shape of the bread is not.

2: As said, the point is that the bread, the host, is unleavened. We have quite a good idea of what kind of bread Jesus would have used, but what’s important is that it’s unleavened, because that’s what was used in the Passover Meal. The shape and size of the unleavened bread is then a matter of less importance.

 

[Howie01]

1: If you’re thinking a “loaf of bread” like the garden variety white bread you can pick up at a bakery, you need to think again.
We know for a fact that the bread used at the Last Supper was unleavened, and THAT is what’s important. The form and shape of the bread is not.

2: As said, the point is that the bread, the host, is unleavened. We have quite a good idea of what kind of bread Jesus would have used, but what’s important is that it’s unleavened, because that’s what was used in the Passover Meal. The shape and size of the unleavened bread is then a matter of less importance.

That’s not what I’m thinking.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

That’s not what I’m thinking.

Yes it is–you seem to be stuck on the shape of the Substance, and how it has varied in time and place. The importance lies in that (pre-Consecrated) it is wheaten bread–at least in some dicernable content.

The shape or leavening is a matter of Church Discipline, subject to the particular’s of the Rite’s tradition. Discipline **CAN **change over time, depending on the need or emphasis in a particular time and place.

The nessesity that it contain wheat is Doctrine, and someone else can probably state if it is Dogmatic Doctrine

 

[celticsfan1983]

As far as the wine not being as strong back in Jesus day, why would the Bible warn of drunkenness? Seems that if the wine isn’t very strong, drunkenness wouldn’t be an issue.