Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[ufamtobie]

Jesus also said that he was bread, water, a sheepfold gate, a shepherd, and a vine. Yet we have no difficulty in realizing that he was speaking metaphorically at those times.

Marie,

As for sheepfold gate,shepherd, and vine, to any of these did Jesus Christ sloemnly assure us as he did his Body and Blood?

Marie open your eyes, read (John 6: 52,53) At this the Jews and (MarieCB) Quarreled among themselves, saying, "HOW CAN HE GIVE US HIS FLESH TO EAT? Thereupon Jesus said to them: (and to MarieCB) Let me SOLEMNLY ASSURE YOU, if you do not eat the FLESH of the son of man and Drink his BLOOD you have no life in you.

MarieCB, can see that you are like these Jews who quarrled among themselves as you quarrled with me abaout the Eucharist. You and these Jews have the same belief and this should scare you straight like the song says “You better check yourself before you wreck yourself,”… like obviously these Jews wreked themselves.

John 6:60 After Hearing his words, many of his disciples and also (MarieCB) remarked, "This sort of talk is hard to endure! How can anyone take it SERIOUSLY?

MarieCB, Look at the sentence “HOW CAN ANYONE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY?” above. Now these Disciples knew exactly what Jesus Christ was saying to them and all, they knew he was not talking metaphorically or symbolically they knew EXACTLY what Jesus said and that was YOU BETTER EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD OR ELSE! AND THIS WAS TO HARD FOR THEM TO ENDURE!

If these Jews/disciples knew that Jesus was only talking Metaphorically or Symbolically this would be easy to ENDURE here, they would have never left Jesus side, now would they. The fact is it is not Metaphorically or Symbolically but the Real presence of Jesus Christ, in tthe Eucharist, Body Blood Soul and Divinity. Amen

MarieCB, is this also to hard for you to ENDURE?

MarieCB, your profile states “Protestant but Seeking” Jesus Christ has indeed brought you to the right place and that is to seek the Catholic Church, why else would you be here.

Your Brother in Christ,

Ufamtobie

 

[MarieCB]

MarieCB, your profile states “Protestant but Seeking” Jesus Christ has indeed brought you to the right place and that is to seek the Catholic Church, why else would you be here.

Well, it certainly wasn’t to be yelled at. Your evangelical skills need some work.

 

[JonNC]

Jesus also said that he was bread, water, a sheepfold gate, a shepherd, and a vine. Yet we have no difficulty in realizing that he was speaking metaphorically at those times.

You are right, Marie, that Christ said he was those things. I am the door, I am the vine, etc. And these are metaphors. “I am this”, or “I am that”. However, He never put His hands on a door, or any of this items, and said, “This is Me”.
It is only at the Last Supper that he says, “This is me”.

IOW, when He put His hands on the bread and said, “this is my body”, He was making a literal declaration, some say predicted by Him in John 6, and quite different from the “I am the…” metaphors.

Jon

 

[scooter469]

The Protestants I’ve spoken to, pride themselves with their Doctrine of Sola Scriptura…that everything they do comes straight out of the Bible and they accuse us Catholic of all kinds of 'Innovations".

By only reading the Bible, how in the world do Protestants defend their innovation of using Grape Juice rather than Wine during their Communion services? The Bible is clear during all accounts of the Last Supper that bread and WINE were used by Jesus, not bread and Grape Juice.

Please explain how you as a Protestant can hold at the same time the belief that everything you do is from the Bible and yet you are practicing a Tradition not found in the Bible by using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion.

This is not a Tradition that was taught by any of the Apostles. Do you simply not realize that by using Grape Juice you are clinging onto a “Tradition of Man”?

 

[MarieCB]

You are right, Marie, that Christ said he was those things. I am the door, I am the vine, etc. And these are metaphors. “I am this”, or “I am that”. However, He never put His hands on a door, or any of this items, and said, “This is Me”.
It is only at the Last Supper that he says, “This is me”.

IOW, when He put His hands on the bread and said, “this is my body”, He was making a literal declaration, some say predicted by Him in John 6, and quite different from the “I am the…” metaphors.

Jon

Ok … intellectually, I can get that. Or at the very least, I can understand why it might be taken literally. However (as the reaction of other Jews and many of the disciples showed) it was - and remains - a repugnant idea. Don’t eat blood. That goes back to the Noahide Laws and if the idea of it repulses me, I can just imagine how it felt to Law-abiding Jews.

As for the OP question, if the bread, which Jesus (and then, later, the early church) broke into pieces and passed around, could be exchanged for mass-produced wafers, I don’t understand why fermented grape juice can’t become unfermented grape juice. And I’ve recently found out that most Catholics don’t even drink the wine during Communion - only those up front. So the cup that was passed around and shared is now restricted to a select few. It seems that the Catholic church has moved from the Lord’s Supper/Agape Feasts as spoken of in the NT. (And the churches I grew up with had regular Agape Feasts, usually once or twice a month).

Perhaps here’s another question to consider - how does a thin wafer of mass-produced bread, handed out to people in a line, match up with the joyful weekly celebration of the Lord’s Supper, of “breaking bread” and “coming together to eat”? When did the meal disappear from the Supper? Now, I recognize that Paul didn’t want them to come in order to get drunk and stuffed - if they were that hungry, eat at home - but they were still to break bread and enjoy a meal in fellowship.

 

[JonNC]

Ok … intellectually, I can get that. Or at the very least, I can understand why it might be taken literally. However (as the reaction of other Jews and many of the disciples showed) it was - and remains - a repugnant idea. Don’t eat blood. That goes back to the Noahide Laws and if the idea of it repulses me, I can just imagine how it felt to Law-abiding Jews.

As for the OP question, if the bread, which Jesus (and then, later, the early church) broke into pieces and passed around, could be exchanged for mass-produced wafers, I don’t understand why fermented grape juice can’t become unfermented grape juice. And I’ve recently found out that most Catholics don’t even drink the wine during Communion - only those up front. So the cup that was passed around and shared is now restricted to a select few. It seems that the Catholic church has moved from the Lord’s Supper/Agape Feasts as spoken of in the NT. (And the churches I grew up with had regular Agape Feasts, usually once or twice a month).

Perhaps here’s another question to consider - how does a thin wafer of mass-produced bread, handed out to people in a line, match up with the joyful weekly celebration of the Lord’s Supper, of “breaking bread” and “coming together to eat”? When did the meal disappear from the Supper? Now, I recognize that Paul didn’t want them to come in order to get drunk and stuffed - if they were that hungry, eat at home - but they were still to break bread and enjoy a meal in fellowship.

Whether or not the bread is “mass-produced”, it is still bread, not so with grape juice and wine. And for me, the Eucharistic celebration is still a feast - of joy and thanksgiving. It is a feast I share with the entire church throughout history. And in many ways, it is the most joyful moment of my week

btw, some of those law-abiding Jews were quite upset the Jesus healed the sick -on the sabbath!!

Jon

 

[surfgirlusa_200]

My grandmother belongs to the SDA church, and told me that “Jesus used grape juice instead of wine, because he wouldn’t want us to put anything bad into our bodies.” I found that interesting (although it is not my belief.)

 

[Bill_Pick]

My grandmother belongs to the SDA church, and told me that “Jesus used grape juice instead of wine, because he wouldn’t want us to put anything bad into our bodies.” I found that interesting (although it is not my belief.)

and it is not true,that what some Baptist try to teach

 

[Bill_Pick]

and it is not true,that what some Baptist try to teach

PS…Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

 

[surfgirlusa_200]

PS…Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

Oh, I agree with you. When I said that my grandmother’s statement was “interesting,” I really meant quite strange, seeing as how there was no refrigeration, etc. My mom doesn’t agree with her either (or with anything else in the SDA church, seeing as how she went from being SDA to Lutheran to Congregationalist), but I don’t think I’ll manage to convince my grandmother. She’s stubborn, but I still love her.

 

[surfgirlusa_200]

and it is not true,that what some Baptist try to teach

Yes, my friend’s father has said that. My friend is Baptist, and her dad is absolutely convinced that alcohol, dancing, etc is a one way ticket to Hell. My friend will probably leave the Baptist church soon after she graduates from college and gets married, because she’s sick of it.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Oh, I agree with you. When I said that my grandmother’s statement was “interesting,” I really meant quite strange, seeing as how there was no refrigeration, etc. My mom doesn’t agree with her either (or with anything else in the SDA church, seeing as how she went from being SDA to Lutheran to Congregationalist), but I don’t think I’ll manage to convince my grandmother. She’s stubborn, but I still love her.

Believe me I have two daughter that are baptist and one is always out to kick my donkey,so I do know what you are talking about;
I was just trying to answer as I seen it,Have a great night

 

[surfgirlusa_200]

Believe me I have two daughter that are baptist and one is always out to kick my donkey,so I do know what you are talking about;
I was just trying to answer as I seen it,Have a great night

And I like your answer.

Thank you, and I hope you have a great night as well!