Protestant interpretations...

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Could you just post the pertinent comments or the post #s? I scanned the first four pages and found nothing from the two posters you mentioned, then jumped to the last page and still found nothing.

Thanks.
It must be read, as it is a progression. Claudius and Ronyodish are linguists and their responses are key. It is a Q & A between them and PCMaster, who takes your view. They point out that Matthew wrote his Gospel in the Syriac language. From that ancient language, which they speak, they clearly show that the plain meaning of Jesus’ words is that Peter was the rock of the earthly Church, with Jesus being its head.

I quickly found agreement as to the language from this “bible only” protestant source:

eternalministries.org/articles/LanguageofMatthew.htm

I know it is much easier to simply argue meaningless points back and forth in a vain attempt to score points, but this can lead to personal sin. Just read the posts by Claudius and Ronyodish, and the questions posed by PCMaster. Out of all the threads in these fora, it is one of the most impressive.

If you read it, you will understand why the Church was formed in its early days in the shape that it was. If you don;t want to read it and learn the meaning of the actual language Matthew wrote in, I guess I can do it for you. But, since it traces back to bedrock truth, is it not worth seeking, since it lies before you, awaiting discovery?
 
A clarification regarding the protestant source:

I quickly found agreement as to the original language from this “bible only” protestant source. However, after citing the ancient authorities such as Papias (early 2nd century) who believed Matthew wrote in Syriac, the site then goes on to postulate the typical post-reformation theories of two rocks/big rock/little rock/Jesus must have been pointing back and forth, etc. Of course, the ancient authorities, being about 75-100 years after Matthew, were much closer to the original, were concerned with the Church that was then united, and were not trying to bolster a rebellious argument that was not formulated until 1,350 years later.

One theory is that Matthew, who spoke the Syriac dialect of Hebrew, for some reason wrote his Gospel in the Greek and it was only later translated back into his own dialect. This is nonsensical!
 
You are twisting and distorting Scripture to suit your own personal interpretation. The word “keys” is plural, but the word “you” is singular - Peter. And nowhere does our Lord give the Keys of the Kingdom to anyone but Peter - you’re making that up. And why is “keys” in the plural? That’s easy:

“I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.” (Revelation 1:18)

And our Lord Jesus shares His power and authority with His Church, and ultimately with the successor of Peter - the Pope.
Matthew 16:13-20
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

“You” is an indefinite pronoun and can be singular or plural and it is wholly dependent on the object to which it is acting.

For example the “you” in “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona” is acting on the singular object Simon Barjona. All the other “you” versus 17 & 18 are acting on a singular objects; therefore the “you” is singular.
Now you get to verse 19, the “keys” are the object of the pronoun “you” and therefore must be in the plural form of “you” because the “keys” are plural, which means he is speaking to more than one person, which of course is revealed in the last verse and also at the beginning of verse 13, His disciples.

Furthermore; if you look carefully at verse 15 “He said to them”, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Here the “you”, in bold above, is plural acting on on the plural pronoun “them”, which refers or acts all the back to verse 13 “His disciples”.

If the sentence was phrased in the following manner, then that would change the “you” as acting on a “singular” object “key”; like this. “I will give you the key of the kingdom of heaven”.

Also, if you look at the other uses of “you” in verse 19; they are also plural in form and can be verified by the very last verse where Jesus tells the “disciples”. Then Matthew 18 confirms this in no uncertain terms that it applies not only to the disciples, but to all Christians.

You can assert that I have distorted the Scripture, but the real proof is what we already know to be true and that is all the apostles were given the authority, “key”, to loose and bind and all the people Jesus spoke to in Matthew 18 also have the power to loose and bind; which is to say give the gospel and depending on if you accept or reject you will be “permitted” to enter or “refrained” from entering the kingdom and all of heaven, from which the authority and message originates, is in agreement. Don’t we see this every day? Of course we do; it is the very purpose of the Christian.

Side note: The keys in Revelation are acting on two objects and are not relevant to the Kingdom of Heaven unless one believes death and Hades are equivalent to heaven.
 
It must be read, as it is a progression.
Thanks just the same, but I don’t care to read 49 pages.

I’m relatively certain I’ve heard it all before and spent time verifying the different claims.

I have found what sound good and believable often turns out to be mere opinion that is contradicted by solid historical fact.

Ginger
 
A clarification regarding the protestant source:

I quickly found agreement as to the original language from this “bible only” protestant source. However, after citing the ancient authorities such as Papias (early 2nd century) who believed Matthew wrote in Syriac, the site then goes on to postulate the typical post-reformation theories of two rocks/big rock/little rock/Jesus must have been pointing back and forth, etc. Of course, the ancient authorities, being about 75-100 years after Matthew, were much closer to the original, were concerned with the Church that was then united, and were not trying to bolster a rebellious argument that was not formulated until 1,350 years later.

One theory is that Matthew, who spoke the Syriac dialect of Hebrew, for some reason wrote his Gospel in the Greek and it was only later translated back into his own dialect. This is nonsensical!
  1. Do we have a copy of the document where Papias makes this statement? Or is the only evidence a claim by Eusebius with or without reference to the origin? Afterall, Eusebius, being human would be prone to err as the rest of us.
  2. As quoted by Eusebius in Hist. Eccl. 3.39, Papias states: “Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.”
The above quote says Matthew wrote in the Hebrew, not Aramaic.

I agree with you that the Hebrew would have been the first. However, the Greek would have been a copy of the original Hebrew text, while the Aramaic, (the Peshitta was written long after the Greek) would have been a copy from a copy. A copy of a copy could hardly be considered more reliable then the copy of the original.

So, the question remains, was Hebrew or Aramaic Matthew’s native tongue? The evidence strongly suggests it was Ancient Hebrew.

That does away with the RC point on the Aramaic language as a proof text.

AND:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The NT records this event in both Aramaic and Hebrew. The question is which is accurate to the words Jesus actually spoke.

As usual, the best why to discern is to read it in context. In this case we can learn from what the eyewitnesses say:

Those who heard Jesus speak responded, Mark 15:35 “Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, ‘Look, He is calling for Elijah!’”
In Hebrew Eli can be either “My God” or an abbreviation for “Elijah”. In Aramaic Eloi distinctly means “My God.” Since the listeners thought Jesus was calling for Elijah, it can only mean Jesus was speaking in Hebrew.
 
The next point is the feminine/masculine response.

Ancient/koine Greek, used os endings for some feminine words, (ie elpidos is femine for hope) so an “os” ending in and of itself is not an indication that word is in the masculine form, as it would in for example modern Spanish.
 
The third point is the definition of the words.

The RC says feminine and masculine forms of the same word.

**KJB **online Bible (not really the best source, but will do for now) says:

PETROS:
Peter = “a rock or a stone”
  1. one of the twelve disciples of Jesus
PETRA:
  1. a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground

b) a rock, a large stone

c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul

Why the diferent definitions? If it is the feminine and masculine forms of the very same word, why isn’t the definition the same?

SEE ALSO:
Vine’s expository dictionary): Petra denotes “a mass of rock,” as distinct from Petros, “a detached stone or boulder,” or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.
 
“You” is an indefinite pronoun and can be singular or plural and it is wholly dependent on the object to which it is acting.
I don’t know where you’re getting that from. Look, this scripture is very simple: Jesus asked His disciples a question, and Peter answered it. So Jesus turned the conversation to Peter, and then at the end turned it back to all His disciples. Here are the words used:

“I will give you (su) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven.”

Strong’s:

su <4771>

Origin: the person pronoun of the second person singular

“Who do you (humeis) say I am?”

Strong’s:

humeis <5210>

Origin: irregular plural of 4771
You can assert that I have distorted the Scripture, but the real proof is what we already know to be true and that is all the apostles were given the authority, “key”, to loose and bind and all the people Jesus spoke to in Matthew 18 also have the power to loose and bind; which is to say give the gospel and depending on if you accept or reject you will be “permitted” to enter or “refrained” from entering the kingdom and all of heaven, from which the authority and message originates, is in agreement. Don’t we see this every day? Of course we do; it is the very purpose of the Christian.
Well I certainly don’t think you’re intentionally distorting Scripture, but that is the bottom line. I don’t think you’ll find a single Father or Doctor - Greek or Latin - who said that anyone on earth but Peter and his successors held the Keys of the Kingdom. Even Tertullian, who rejected the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, said that Peter was given the keys; he just denied that that authority was handed down to Peter’s successors. And he ended up a schismatic, and fell into many heresies. If you go to Scripture Catholic you’ll see at the first three links (The Church) tons of quotes from the early Church, and they all spoke with one voice, including on the Keys of the Kingdom.

And, yes, of course our Lord has given us power and authority through faith in Him. But as I said, the ultimate authority on earth is the Pope.
Side note: The keys in Revelation are acting on two objects and are not relevant to the Kingdom of Heaven unless one believes death and Hades are equivalent to heaven.
Of course they’re not equivalent! How dare you! 😃 The point is that there are multiple keys!
 
Well, I’m just a little nobody Protestant so my (name removed by moderator)ut here will mean nothing, but…

The reason Protestants believe two different words derived from the same root word are used is because secular writings, from around or a little before the same time, use these two words clearly giving them different meanings.
Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann


“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

Oscar Cullman (Protestant Scholar)

“But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my church’? The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in vew of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia [church]. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich), [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1968], 6:108).

R.T. France (Anglican)

“Jesus now sums up Peter’s significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter’s character (he did not prove to be ‘rock-like’ in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus’ church. The feminine word for ‘rock’, ‘petra’, is necessarily changed to the masculine ‘petros’ (stone) to give a man’s name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form ‘kepha’ would occur in both places**). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Roman Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the ‘rock’ here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed.** "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied…Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus’ new community . . . which will last forever.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)

"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)

“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)
 
The evidence strongly suggests it was Ancient Hebrew.

That does away with the RC point on the Aramaic language as a proof text.
Are you sure, Ginger?

World-renowned scripture scholar W.F. Albright disagrees.

"Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter. (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)
 
The third point is the definition of the words.

The RC says feminine and masculine forms of the same word.

**KJB **online Bible (not really the best source, but will do for now) says:

PETROS:
Peter = “a rock or a stone”
  1. one of the twelve disciples of Jesus
PETRA:
  1. a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground

b) a rock, a large stone

c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul

Why the diferent definitions? If it is the feminine and masculine forms of the very same word, why isn’t the definition the same?

SEE ALSO:
Vine’s expository dictionary): Petra denotes “a mass of rock,” as distinct from Petros, “a detached stone or boulder,” or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.
All of this “Petros” or “Petra” talk would have more merit if St. Peter had no other name.

Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for the Catholic Church, we have St. John the Evangelist’s testimony.

[42] He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). John 1:42 (RSV)

You may also look here for John 1:42 in other English Bible translations

There is also St. Paul’s testimony, wherein he calls Simon Peter numerous times “Cephas.” See here.

And, well, “Cephas,” or more properly “Kaipha,” in Aramaic means “Rock.”
 
Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann


“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

Oscar Cullman (Protestant Scholar)

“But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my church’? The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in vew of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia [church]. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich), [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1968], 6:108).

R.T. France (Anglican)

“Jesus now sums up Peter’s significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter’s character (he did not prove to be ‘rock-like’ in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus’ church. The feminine word for ‘rock’, ‘petra’, is necessarily changed to the masculine ‘petros’ (stone) to give a man’s name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form ‘kepha’ would occur in both places**). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Roman Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the ‘rock’ here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed.** "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied…Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus’ new community . . . which will last forever.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)

"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)

“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)
I don’t follow what you are trying to tell me. :confused:

I said petra and petros are two different words. I never said Peter is not a rock. What I did say is Peter is not the immovable rock, nor the foundation stone, because that rock is Jesus Christ.

I also did not say the petros is Peters confession, altho that makes sense when viewing this verse by itself. However, Simon is repeatedly referred to by the name of Peter, so it is obvious Peter is the petros, but not the Petra.

Also, Biblical scholars are OK to read, but they have no more authority than the Apocrypha.

And finally, they did not speak Aramaic. The Jews were still speaking Hebrew as the native tongue and also knew Greek as a second but fluent language.
 
Thanks just the same, but I don’t care to read 49 pages.

I’m relatively certain I’ve heard it all before and spent time verifying the different claims.

I have found what sound good and believable often turns out to be mere opinion that is contradicted by solid historical fact.

Ginger
49 pages to the truth. Is it not worth the effort?

You’ve heard the Syriac langiuage parsed? Wow! Normally, only ancient eastern language scholars and professors have that experience.

Well, it was nice trying to reason with you, I guess.
 
“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal.”(Diet of Nuremburg in 1522)

Indeed, in the entire history of the Church there are no precedents for requests for forgiveness by the Magisterium for past wrongs. Councils and papal decrees applied sanctions, to be sure, to abuses of which clerics and laymen were found guilty, and many pastors sincerely strove to correct them. However, the occasions when ecclesiastical authorities – Pope, Bishops, or Councils – have openly acknowledged the faults or abuses which they themselves were guilty of, have been quite rare. One famous example is furnished by the reforming Pope Adrian VI who acknowledged publicly in a message to the Diet of Nuremberg of November 25, 1522, “the abominations, the abuses…and the lies” of which the “Roman court” of his time was guilty, “deep-rooted and extensive…sickness,” extending “from the top to the members.”(7) Adrian VI deplored the faults of his times, precisely those of his immediate predecessor Leo X and his curia, without, however, adding a request for pardon.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html
Sinners belong in the Church, GottaGo. We don’t shoot our wounded.

From a theological point of view, Vatican II distinguishes between the indefectible fidelity of the Church and the weaknesses of her members, (something anti-Catholics seem to be incapable of comprehending) clergy or laity, yesterday and today,(12) and therefore, between the Bride of Christ “with neither blemish nor wrinkle…holy and immaculate” (cf. Eph 5:27), and her children, pardoned sinners, called to permanent metanoia, to renewal in the Holy Spirit. “The Church, embracing sinners in her bosom, is at the same time holy and always in need of purification and incessantly pursues the path of penance and renewal.”(13)
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html

I’ll bet you still don’t get it.

And you shouldn’t quote snippets from official Church documents. Text without context is a pretext. Church document snippets without the Church is just an excuse.
 
Ginger2

i’m only a beginner here but thought I’d add something

Also not sure if this aligns correctly with official catholic teaching, but I have always been convinced that Peter himself and his faith are what jesus ‘starts’ to build his church on, with the apostles & all believers (holy priesthood) also beings stones of the overall foundation.

With Jesus being the chief corner stone

As Peter says - “ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrafices, acceptable to God by jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in scripture, behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone…(ie: jesus)…”1Pet 2:4KJV
 
I don’t follow what you are trying to tell me. :confused:

I said petra and petros are two different words. I never said Peter is not a rock. What I did say is Peter is not the immovable rock, nor the foundation stone, because that rock is Jesus Christ.
Yes, we know the rock is Christ. “The RC” does not deny this. We also know, and the Church has always taught, that Jesus is the foundation or corner stone for the Church. In fact, He does all the building. This is not a startling revelation for Catholics. You are inventing a non-sequitur. What you are saying is the Jesus does not have any authority to confer this disctinction on Peter to be the Rock on which JESUS builds the Church. “Rock” can have more than one meaning, and, contrary to the use of the word “rock” in scripture, you are confining it to have just one meaning.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
I also did not say the petros is Peters confession, altho that makes sense when viewing this verse by itself. However, Simon is repeatedly referred to by the name of Peter, so it is obvious Peter is the petros, but not the Petra.
Matthew was a translator, not an interpreter. The words were spoken in Aramaic and translated into whatever language feels good for you. Look in an Aramaic Bible. Jesus said in Aramaic, you are “Kepha” and on this “Kepha” I will build my Church. There is no distinction.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are “Kepha” and on this “Kepha” I will build my Church. In Aramaic, “kepha” means a massive stone, and “evna” means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is “petra”, that “Petros” actually means “a small rock”, and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus’ blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used “Kepha,” not “evna.” Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.
Also, Biblical scholars are OK to read, but they have no more authority than the Apocrypha.
That is a red herring; off topic.
And finally, they did not speak Aramaic. The Jews were still speaking Hebrew as the native tongue and also knew Greek as a second but fluent language.
That is another 400 year old Protestant generated myth. Matt. 16:17 - to further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon “Bar-Jona.” The use of “Bar-Jona” proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, “Bar” means son, and “Jonah” means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.

Matt.27: 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?”…
You don’t really expect me to believe this even looks like Hebrew or Greek, do you?

I have no problem accepting that Peter’s confession is the rock on which the Church is built, because I understand that scripture can have more than one meaning. Even the Pope accepts Peter’s confession as the immovable rock. But the question is, what is Peter confessing? “You are the Christ, Son of the Living God.” But the bigger question is, why did the Father reveal it to Peter and not all 12 Apostles? And why didn’t Jesus give out 12 sets of keys?

Keys to a Honda because they were of one “Accord”???

“Whatever you bind on earth…”
What is your definition for “whatever”?

Anti-Catholic Rule #1
Never admit you are wrong, just change the subject.
 
Furthermore, it was strictly forbidden for any Jew to say the name of God, but for one exception: when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on the feast of Yom Kippur. Jesus did not scold Peter for this violation, because Peter knew that God was asking him to say the name. The rule did not apply. The OFFICE of High Priest had been transferred to Peter, as marked by the ONE SET of the metaphorical keys of authority given to Peter, and only to Peter. There were no 12 sets of keys.

And you can never fit 12 Apostles into a Honda. 😃
 
49 pages to the truth. Is it not worth the effort? .
So absolute truth is found in Catholic laypeople and scholars???

It is 49 pages of people’s opinions 99% of which is based on misunderstandings and misinformation.

And one percent based on Holy Scripture being interpreted thru the 99%.

After looking at five pages, I didn’t even see one post from either of the people whose posts you said I should read.

You did say I didn’t need to read the whole thing, only the posts by those two people. Now you say I need to read the whole thing. 🤷
 
Are you sure, Ginger?

World-renowned scripture scholar W.F. Albright disagrees.

"Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter. (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)
Can you provide a link to this?

I don’t give much authority to scholars except to the extent they have studied things the rest of us have not.

Is he claiming the Gospel of Matthew used an Aramaic word in the original Greek texts? As is the case of Matthew and Mark (Eli, Eloi)?

The Aramaic, if I remember correctly, does have more than one word that could have been used, but the Aramaic translation (Peshitta) was most likely a copy of the Greek, not the original texts, so that diminishes its reliability greatly. however, if you can prove an Aramaic word was used in the original Greek translations, I would have to give this some thought.

Ginger
 
Furthermore, it was strictly forbidden for any Jew to say the name of God, but for one exception: when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on the feast of Yom Kippur. Jesus did not scold Peter for this violation,

Are you saying Peter did not use the word Theos, the equivalent of Elohim, but said “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living YHWH.”?

I’ll have to look that up.

Ginger
 
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