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ConstantineTG
Guest
But how is purgatory, which is not a union with God, lead to a union with God in heaven? Don’t we believe that when we die we are already either in union or not in union with God?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
But where does in Scripture that is even mentioned? I always read that God will give us comfort, that He will lift us up, that He will give us unending joy.
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bzkoss236
Guest
I said an imperfect union. There most certainly is a union, but imperfect. Just as how Catholics and Orthodox are in union as the Body of Christ, but imperfectly so.
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Steveabrous
Guest
Yes, these things, though related to purgatory, are not part of the doctrine of Purgatory or explain what Purgatory is. The poster you said was wrong is actually correct. That was my point. We don’t need non-Catholics telling us what we have to believe as Catholics or tell us what certain councils or papal decrees mean and if they are binding. We have the Magisterium for that thank you
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Jon_S_1
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Why do you feel that Purgatory is not a union with God. It is at least as in union with God as we are here currently, and most likely more in union with God than we are now, as our sins are acknowledged, and out sinful nature melted away. You must understand that this could very well be instantaneous on death, something that happens as we enter God’s presence. To speculate on times is futile, as we have no knowledge of time in heaven, and it certainly does not correlate to our time which is based on the physics of our small little solar system in our dot of the universe.
Purgatory is a way of transforming us into perfect union with God.
But don’t take my word for it…Take Pope Benedict XVI’s…certainly you would say he understands catholic teaching right? (my comments in ] and italics.)
Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves Purgatory]**is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. sounds pretty in union with God to me] This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.
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Jon_S_1
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These things are intertwined with the doctrine of Purgatory in some ways, but relate more to praying for those who have died, more than Purgatory. Also, the practice of indulgences has much to do with our sanctification here on earth, rather than Purgatory. “Time” in Purgatory is a side effect of earthly sanctification.
Ultimately, when it comes to Purgatory the three items I mentioned are required. These are things you brought up are side issues.
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Isaiah45_9
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I think this is the first time I have heard an Orthodox demanding Scripture evidence for Church teaching…
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SteveVH
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Sometimes I don’t think you really read what is posted. Does Scripture have to mention that we will long for our eternal home or that we will feel sorrow (pain) for having offended God? I also said that we believe that Jesus and Mary console the souls that are going through purification.
You seem insistent that we believe that God is somehow punishing the souls in purgatory when you have been told over and over again that this is not our belief. Please.
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ufamtobie
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Delaine,My former mother-in-law (who is Protestant) claims that since the word “purgatory” is nowhere in the Bible, it does not exist. Nothing I have shown her will convince her.
Tell you Mother in Law that the word Purgatory is not mentioned in the bible but the definition / notion of the word Purgatory is. Tell you mother in law, to read the below verses and if she don’t believe in purgatory that does not mean she is going to escape it, I guess some have to learn about purgatory the hard way
(Isaiah 6: 5, 6)And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts. 6And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.
“…for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each one will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge will turn you over to the constable, and the constable throw you in into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." (Luke 12:58-59)
“My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he likewise disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.” (Proverbs 3:11-12 and Hebrews 12:6-7).
“And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age, or in the age to come.” (Matthew 12:32)
Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?" (1 Corinthians 15:29)
“Everyone will be salted with fire.” (Mark 9:49)
Isaiah felt unworthy to be in the presence of God because he was a man of unclean lips. So then the Seraphim flew to Isaiah with a hot live coal and touched Isaiah’s mouth and therefore burned away all of Isaiah’s sins the hot coals cleansed Isaiah.
Purgatory will do the same to us all, the hot coal there, will cleanse us from the stains of sins that have been forgiven by God through His Church He Established over 2000 years ago. Amen
Ufam Tobie
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CaptFun
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__gB2ZU3by...s400/Screen+shot+2010-01-26+at+9.51.07+PM.png 
An illustration from the good 'ol Baltimore Catechism.
Hell is not included in this. Souls in Purgatory eventually make it to heaven.
So they are the “saved, yet as through fire” folks.
This was educational. I thought souls in Purgatory COULD pray for US!
This will cause me to study - which is always good.
catholic.com/video/can-the-souls-in-purgatory-pray-for-us
AND I was right. This artwork just doesn’t deal with that aspect of who can do what for whom. At some point one must stop drawing arrows.
An illustration from the good 'ol Baltimore Catechism.
Hell is not included in this. Souls in Purgatory eventually make it to heaven.
So they are the “saved, yet as through fire” folks.
This was educational. I thought souls in Purgatory COULD pray for US!
This will cause me to study - which is always good.
catholic.com/video/can-the-souls-in-purgatory-pray-for-us
AND I was right. This artwork just doesn’t deal with that aspect of who can do what for whom. At some point one must stop drawing arrows.
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Ad_Crucem
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Why would you pray for anyone who has died, unless they are in purgatory? The deceased in heaven don’t need them, and the deceased in hell are beyond them.
Indulgences directly remit sins for which a period in purgatory must be spent. Of course, indulgences also remitted canonical penalties on earth, as well. But which focus of them became the most prominent? You may say they are side issues, but they are not.
Your statements originally were in regard to the fact that Protestants could accept a minimized definition of purgatory to just being one of cleansing of sin after death. I pointed out that a Protestant could do that, but he or she would not be accepting the Catholic doctrine. If they didn’t also accept indulgences, Masses for the dead, the thesaurus meritum, etc. they wouldn’t be accepting the Catholic doctrine. Since they already believe that souls are cleansed of sin after death, they wouldn’t need to accept the Catholic doctrine of purgatory in order to believe that.
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Ad_Crucem
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Oh ye of the unnecessary snark, I didn’t point out any poster as being “wrong.” I was pointing out why Protestants cannot accept a doctrine of purgatory; and it’s not because Protestants don’t believe souls are cleansed after death. They just don’t believe that souls are cleansed the way Catholics believe they are…which is through temporal suffering, indulgences, Masses and the merits of the saints.
As for what Catholics are required to believe, yes, they are required to believe more than just the statement that souls are cleansed after death. They must also believe everything in italics above.
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Steveabrous
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And again I will let the Magisterium tell me what I am required to believe thank you
As for what Protestants can or can not accept it is irrelevant in my view. If they want to deny the truth that’s their problem. I personally don’t believe belief or disbelief in purgatory will send anyone to hell
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SteveVH
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I thank God for purgatory.
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Henree
Guest
Why do hold that belief?
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Steveabrous
Guest
If belief in Purgatory were required to go to heaven then only Roman Catholics have a shot. The church does not teach only Catholics go to heaven. It would mean no Protestants or orthodox
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Ad_Crucem
Guest
If you believe it is irrelevant, then why are you discussing it on a thread?
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SteveVH
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It’s an interesting question when one considers that we are to believe all that holy mother Church teaches and holds to be true. Purgatory is a doctrine, therefore it is not optional.
Is it a mortal sin to deny a doctrine of the Church? I don’t know. But I do know that we are not in charge of who goes to hell or not and we have a God who knows people’s hearts and is merciful. I think if properly understood very few would deny the doctrine.
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Steveabrous
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I think the key word is “We” are required. In other words we Catholics have a grace and a burden. The magisterium says There is a Purgatory? Then it must be true and we Catholics do not have the luxury of not believing in it. However, Those “who through no fault of their own are born into such eclesiastical communities”, I believe, it is not held against them. I believe the same is true about the Marion dogmas.
I believe, and will defend, every Marion dogma. But Mary is not the way to heaven. She can point you in the right direction, and is a huge help to those who emplore her though. And she knows the way better then anyone. But she is not the way
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Well said:thumbsup:
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