Protestant opinion on where Roman Catholic Church went into apostasy?

[mcq72]

So baptism is how we are born again

So you are saying fallen man can believe, confess, as done at and before entering the water, his spirit dead in trespasses and sin still ?

Can an unregenerate man confess Jesus as Lord and Savior ?

“and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[mcq72]

If you truly want to be “born again” look at John 3:5 in the Bible.

You presume that the water in said text is baptism. That is a possibility along with others. But just as faith is not directly there, neither is it clearly the water baptism. To say that it is goes against the wind explanation that Jesus gives a few verses later. To say it specifically happens at water baptism puts it all in a box. You can’t put wind in a box, without quenching it.

 

[mcq72]

Does faith make one born again?

Perhaps I mispoke. God in His infinite mercy and goodness makes one born again.Saving faith is the intial breath of such a new birth.

You are correct. God doesn’t see that we have saving faith and then is moved to regenerate us. Yet there is an iota of faith we are gifted with that cries out to God for saving faith, even to be born again. It is that cry for help that He can not refuse, that moves Him.

 

[christismylord]

(Acts 2:38-39) Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

We can see that baptism indicates a further, permanent, indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It’s for “all whom the Lord our God will call ” So the first step is being called by God and having faith, next comes baptism.

Also, (Mark 16:16) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

(Ezekiel 25-28) I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

All of these amazing promises are listed after baptism in Ezekiel. God is not confined to the sacraments (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257) (and Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before baptism in the New Testament) so no it’s not necessary if you cannot get baptized for whatever reason. But no reason not to since it is commanded many times scripturally (and is a sacrament of the Catholic Church.)

 

[christismylord]

Yet there is an iota of faith we are gifted with that cries out to God for saving faith, even to be born again. It is that cry for help that He can not refuse, that moves Him.

You say God gives us this “initial faith” that begs for a more deep “saving faith” And He can’t refuse our cry (so basically God can’t resist God) I agree.

Jesus says in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Ok so we can see that the Father (presumably through the Holy Spirit) draws us to Christ. From there, we develop a “true stronger saving faith.”

And yes this makes us desire to be born again. But how are we born again? Not simply through faith, but by baptism (of the Holy Spirit.) The water baptism is a way for the Holy Spirit to impart Himself unto us. Like I said in the prior post, is water baptism essential for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts in all situations? No, (see the example of Cornelius in Acts 10:44-46.) But it is commanded in scripture and is the way God desires to pour out His graces and Spirit upon us in this way.

 

[mcq72]

Acts 2:38-39) Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

Well, you wanted direct referencing, and Peter does not say be baptized to be born again.

Remember Cornelius received baptism of Holy Ghost before any water baptism. Also we read about some who were believers but had not been baptized in Holy Ghost (laid hands on). So they believed, were Christian, but not received gift of Holy Ghost.

 

[christismylord]

And these people who had not yet heard of the Holy Ghost, does it say they were saved before?

 

[christismylord]

And if baptism has a direct correlation with forgiveness of sins, you are only proving that it is essential. If our sins aren’t forgiven, we’re doomed! This was bought by Jesus on the cross, Peter says here that baptism is a way to impart this grace unto us

 

[christismylord]

Also you just took out the next sentence in which Peter claims we receive (the fullness of) the Holy Spirit after baptism. It’s all the same speech by him.

 

[mcq72]

The water baptism is a way for the Holy Spirit to impart Himself unto us.

I don’t think so.

John the baptist and Jesus and apostles were all water baptized for the remission of sins, not for regeneration or indwelling. John and apostles baptized many. We have no record of those hundreds if not thousands being rebaptized to receive the indwelling and even baptism in Holy Ghost after Pentecost, including the apostles.

 

[christismylord]

When Jesus was baptized, that’s when the Holy Spirit came upon Him (visibly for the first time) in the form of a dove. (I assume He had the Holy Spirit before because, well, He is God.)

 

[christismylord]

Right and John says in (Matthew 3:11) “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire“

John’s pre-Jesus baptism was different than our post-resurrection baptism now. John’s was for the repentance. Jesus (who is Living Water) baptizes us “with the Holy Spirit” into rebirth

 

[mcq72]

Also you just took out the next sentence in which Peter claims we receive (the fullness of) the Holy Spirit after baptism. It’s all the same speech by him.

Well, he said repent, and be baptized, and receive the gift of HG. The only direct correlation to water baptism is remission of sins.

 

[mcq72]

John’s pre-Jesus baptism was different than our post-resurrection baptism now. John’s was for the repentance. Jesus (who is Living Water) baptizes us “with the Holy Spirit” into rebirth

Again, did all the pre water baptized have to then get post water baptized ? I say no.

 

[christismylord]

The only direct correlation to water baptism is remission of sins.

So nevertheless it is (unless due to impossible circumstance) necessary. Because forgiveness of sins is absolutely necessary.

 

[mcq72]

Because forgiveness of sins is absolutely necessary.

Correct, by the blood.

 

[christismylord]

Again, did all the pre water baptized have to then get post water baptized ? I say no.

Since scripture is infallible, if those people previously baptized by John (for repentance) wanted also the Holy Spirit and remission of sins, (as Peter says in Acts) I would think yes they would.

 

[christismylord]

Correct, by the blood.

…but you yourself just said previously

The only direct correlation to water baptism is remission of sins.

(Now if there is some circumstance where someone dies and could not have gotten baptized for some reason but believes, God’s grace is great and He will do whatever is just) but why would we not get baptized anyway?

I think the bottom line is being baptized (reborn) with the Holy Spirit is necessary, (as Jesus says to Nicodemus) and water baptism is a way for God to give us this grace. If for some reason we can’t get baptized by water, God is not confined to only giving the Holy Spirit at water baptism, He can do whatever He is pleased to do. Nevertheless, let’s all get baptized because we love Jesus, yeah? Peace

 

[mcq72]

but why would we not get baptized anyway?

I am not arguing against should we but why.

The peace will come when the teaching that water baptism automatically makes one born again ceases. Need better safeguards against false assurance by what we do in regards to having been born again in my opinion.

 

[christismylord]

Because we listen to Jesus.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

[Matthew 28:19-20]