Protestant opinion on where Roman Catholic Church went into apostasy?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

the individual is also the temple of Truth and Wisdom.

temple of Holy Sprit sure… but temple of Truth and Wisdom? I don’t necessarily understand what do you mean by this.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I disagree. Not erring is always conditional on being one with the Spirit, both for the individual and the church.

Individuals can be deceived. Church can not.

It contradicts only if you believe one is saved by perfection, and can never err.

I get your point. I am mostly saying that if indeed everybody was saved from moment they believed, then errors in teaching would not be very likely… and wouldn’t likely survive nor spread.

 

[mcq72]

temple of Holy Sprit sure… but temple of Truth and Wisdom? I don’t necessarily understand what do you mean by this.

Synonyms…sometimes interchangeable amongst the Godhead…capitals

 

[christismylord]

As a former Protestant (Now Catholic) the main Catholic ideas looked down upon

• Mary was sinless
• Prayers to Mary/saints as mediators
• Following the Pope instead of solely Jesus
• sacraments required for salvation (faith alone doctrine for Protestants)
• Having a priest give penance
• venerating images or statues

Not saying I believe in any of these arguments, but they are out there!

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Synonyms…sometimes interchangeable amongst the Godhead…capitals

Yes, but temple itself has different meaning that pillar. Pillar is something that supports something, that would otherwise fall. Church supports truth that will otherwise not be presented to the world, per scriptural meaning. Temples venerate something/someone, as well as hold something/someone inside them. Holy Spirit indwells within us all, and Holy Spirit is Wisdom and Truth. However, we are bearing Him within us- but we are corruptible and fallible. Jewish people kept their temples after they rejected Christ- and those temples were indeed temples of Almighty God… but those temples were not infallible.

 

[mcq72]

I get your point. I am mostly saying that if indeed everybody was saved from moment they believed, then errors in teaching would not be very likely… and wouldn’t likely survive nor spread.

That salvation takes place in heaven as you know, and is not rightly applied to the past (the moment we believed) and present salvation of OSAS.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Wait if you are once saved always saved, then how does salvation take present in the future? Is “being saved” different than salvation?

In other words you are assured of your salvation but you are not assured of believing in truth…?

 

[JonNC]

Mary was sinless

For some, only the IC. Mary being sinless are the visitation is acceptable.

Prayers to Mary/saints as mediators

There is but one mediator: Christ. Now if you mean requesting intercessory prayer from the saints in Heaven, I personally have a different view of it, but yes, Protestants typically do not ask the saints in Heaven to pray for them.

Following the Pope instead of solely Jesus

The wording here might even disturb some Catholics.

sacraments required for salvation (faith alone doctrine for Protestants)

Baptism is. Confession, maybe. But none of the others are required for salvation.

Having a priest give penance

It is certainly a blessing for this Lutheran

venerating images or statues

Depends

 

[mcq72]

Wait if you are once saved always saved, then how does salvation take present in the future? Is “being saved” different than salvation?

In other words you are assured of your salvation but you are not assured of believing in truth…?

Well you lost me…i’ll back up…what do you mean by “if you are saved when you believe”?

Pillar is something that supports something,…but we are corruptible and fallible

Do you as a disciple support anything in His kingdom on earth? Are we not ambassadors of the Almighty, even salt of the earth?

Individuals make up the body, the church. Such individuals are no longer of corrupt, fallible even fallen nature only, but have been regenerated in spirit, and have a new nature.

Scripture seems clear, that individual disciple and corporate health are conditional, upon abiding in Him in truth and spirit.

 

[AlNg]

. But none of the others are required for salvation.

Can you be saved without having life in you? The Eucharist only way you can have life in you according to
John 6: 51 - 57.

 

[JonNC]

Can you be saved without having life in you? The Eucharist only way you can have life in you according to
John 6: 51 - 57.

I think the case can be made for the Eucharist, yes. We are speaking of adults here.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

if you are saved when you believe”?

I meant to imply that being “saved” is a permanent thing that can not be lost, attained when you start believing in Christ.

Do you as a disciple support anything in His kingdom on earth? Are we not ambassadors of the Almighty, even salt of the earth?

Not me alone. I am not a pillar that is essential- if I apostatize, Church will not fall, neither will His Kingdom.

Scripture seems clear, that individual disciple and corporate health are conditional, upon abiding in Him in truth and spirit.

Of course, we are part of that Body and make it up… but Body itself is guided by Holy Spirit, not individuals in themselves. In other words while Body is assured to have true doctrine, individuals can fail.

Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus writes, “The Catholic Church, which exists from the ages, is revealed most clearly in the incarnate advent of Christ”.
Saint John Damascene observes, “The Holy Catholic Church of God, therefore, is the assembly of the holy Fathers, Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists, and Martyrs who have been from the very beginning, to whom were added all the nations who believed with one accord”.
According to Saint Gregory the Theologian, “The Prophets established the Church, the Apostles conjoined it, and the Evangelists set it in order”.
The Church existed from the creation of the Angels, for the Angels came into existence before the creation of the world, and they have always been members of the Church. Saint Clement , Bishop of Rome, says in his second epistle to the Corinthians, the Church “was created before the sun and moon”; and a little further on, “The Church exists not now for the first time, but has been from the beginning”.
(quoted from orthodoxwiki)

Because Church existed from the beginning, it is not an Earthly institute. Indeed, if all men stopped believing in Christ and apostatized, Church would still exist! As our Lord said, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”. God will always do things to His glory and His eternal goodness, even if men choose not to follow Him, He will make new followers. We are not essential, we are not irreplaceable… but we are loved.

 

[mcq72]

We are not essential, we are not irreplaceable… but we are loved.

Thank you for your response. Can only quickly say (at work), that apparently as per Revelation, a church can be also be replaceable, or at least their candlestick given to another.

Not me alone. I am not a pillar that is essential- if I apostatize, Church will not fall, neither will His Kingdom.

Well the Church is not alone also. He ( the invisible Holy Spirit) uses disciples to keep the columns upright.

Eveyone is essential. Everyone proclaims, testifies, preaches and is a watchdog to the truth, thru the Holy Spirit that is within us. Some are more gifted (annointing by HG)) than others and have an office for such then.

Some do not dichotomize as much as what you suggest between the individual and the corporate, between the lay and clergy even. Key word, as much, for we all do to some extent.

I do agree that His truth will march on, by whom and of those that have an ear to hear, and believe. Otherwise reformers would not be so adamant in their proclamations.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Eveyone is essential. Everyone proclaims, testifies, preaches and is a watchdog to the truth, thru the Holy Spirit that is within us. Some are more gifted (annointing by HG)) than others and have an office for such then.

I guess we are both saying the same thing… just terminology of word “essential” is somewhat different.

as per Revelation, a church can be also be replaceable, or at least their candlestick given to another.

That is about individual Churches, but One True Church stays Christ’s Church with same doctrine and dogmas… protected in Truth. Because Church (singular, global Church) is pillar of Truth.

 

[christismylord]

I meant to imply that being “saved” is a permanent thing that can not be lost, attained when you start believing in Christ.

Yes the “being saved when you first believe“ is a questionable Protestant doctrine, considering (Hebrews 6:4-6) “ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.“

Seems to say one can believe for a time then fall away, never to be restored.

Romans 10:9 says “ Because if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.“

This is one of the passages that people use to say anything outside faith is unnecessary for salvation. However the very next verse says

Romans 10:10 “ Trusting with the heart leads to righteousness, and confessing with the mouth leads to salvation.”

So we are not saved by “faith alone” because without confession it does not say it will “lead to salvation” (Now someone with true faith would presumably confess as well so they are not necessarily two separate things, rather intertwined by God’s Grace)

And one who believes and does not confess is purposely denying God the glory of them confessing Him, maybe because they are scared of judgement (“the cowardly…will not enter Heaven” -Revelation 21:8) or because they just don’t care (Jesus has some strong words for those whose faith is “lukewarm” or have “lost their saltiness”)

In conclusion, “faith alone” is not justifiable. And one with true faith would confess Christ, receive communion, get baptized, do works, confess their sins, etc based on that true faith if they are filled with the Holy Spirit and truly love God. So faith is the beginning of being reborn, baptism of the Holy Spirit starts sanctification by the Holy Spirit, and sanctification can be a lifelong thing.

 

[gam197]

The early church was truly Christian and there was no such thing as a papacy. Individual churches pretty much ran their own affairs. There were various councils that decided the “big issues”. Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire not too long before that empire fell. In the absence of any opposition, the church at Rome gradually began usurping more and more power, under a papacy (bishopric of Rome) that kept growing in influence, and somewhere along the line, Rome went apostate. It didn’t happen all at once. Practices and beliefs alien to Scripture and to true Christianity (so they say) began creeping in and made a bad situation even worse. There were scattered groups and reformers here and there, but everything was under Rome’s control. “True Christians” (again, say they) suffered and were persecuted. Finally, Luther stood up and said “enough is enough”, and the whole thing came crashing down, with Rome retaining power wherever it could.

If you had to fit the whole story on the back of a postcard, that’s pretty much how it would go.

It is all a case of “whose ox is being gored?”. The period from roughly 500 to 1500 AD is summarily dismissed by the secular world, and by Protestants, as “the Dark Ages”, which is a shorthand way of saying “everyone was Catholic, everything revolved around the Catholic Church, life was horrible,

Enjoyed reading the thread.

So some protestants see Catholics as getting the first 500 years right or somewhat right and they see their faith as a return to their roots when there was primacy but not an authoritarian pope. One thousand years (1000) struggle is lost between 500 to 1500 AD.

originally posted by Mishakle
In Daniel there is no doubt who the 4 beasts, and the 4 distinct parts of the statue are because 3 are told to us. The head of gold or 1st beast was Babylon. Daniel foretold who the next two beasts would be. Babylon was conquered by Medo-Persia. The 3rd beast was Greece who conquered Medo-Persia. Daniel doesn’t name the 4th beast but again we all know Rome conquered Greece.

Both Daniel and Paul tell us this 4th beast would last until Christ comes back to destroy it.
John in Revelation 19 sees this even in greater detail

Some protestants go so far as believing that Satan created the catholic church. How does one have dialogue if that is the premise?

The dialogue was good and points were made on what the differences are.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

So some protestants see Catholics as getting the first 500 years right or somewhat right and they see their faith as a return to their roots when there was primacy but not an authoritarian pope. One thousand years (1000) struggle is lost between 500 to 1500 AD.

Protestants typically dismiss that thousand years (500-1500 AD, more or less) as “the Dark Ages”. The unspoken stereotype is “everyone was Catholic, poor, stupid, dirty, sick, enslaved, superstitious, they did whatever the priest said, they had more children than they could support, people died young, and then the Reformation came along, people were finally able to read the Bible and follow Jesus rather than the Catholic Church, and people became clean, prosperous, educated, and healthy”.

 

[mcq72]

So the trusting with your heart makes you righteous. But it does not say forever saved. It is the confessing that leads to salvation. (Which, I suppose, is a work of sorts) So we are not saved by “faith alone” because without confession it does not say it will “lead to salvation”

But we dont confess to get saved, nor to get faith, but because we by grace have been given such faith, forming a foundation from which to utter such confession in the first place.

Technically everything we do in the spirit is leading to our salvation (sanctification and glorification). Yet initial confession does not make one born again but faith does. Only a new man can confess Jesus as Lord savingly (not lying or deceived).

So confessing is that first baby step on our saving journey ( again it does not make you a baby).

 

[christismylord]

But we dont confess to get saved

I said confessing leads to salvation not makes us saved. It is one of many steps believers take. And right we don’t confess to get saved. I only said it leads to salvation. Confession is a means to an end not an end in itself.

Yet initial confession does not make one born again but faith does.

Does faith make one born again? Where is a bible verse saying this? We are born again of “water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.”

Faith is one of the first baby steps to salvation. Faith is also a means to an end not an end in itself. We are not saved by “faith alone;” but faith is the start of a relationship with Christ.

So baptism is how we are born again (water & the Spirit) (water could be referring to water baptism or Jesus as Living Water) But baptism by itself does not save us either! Everything works together: faith, baptism, sanctification by the Holy Spirit.

 

[christismylord]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

When you search up “born again through faith” no bible verse comes up; only the “Protestant phrase” that they decided meant what they wanted it to mean.

If you truly want to be “born again” look at John 3:5 in the Bible.