Protestant opinion on where Roman Catholic Church went into apostasy?

[RaisedCatholic]

No, there were more than 1 Clement RC but even if that was the only one your “except” clause confirms my point.

1 Clement is the only non-canonical writing that is confirmed to have been written in the first century. But despite being written in the late first century, unlike the NT writings, 1 Clement does contain errors in it, unlike the NT writings. The dating of the Didache is uncertain, the earliest being AD 70, but as late as AD 120, & it too contains errors in them. Same with Ignatius’ epistles, which were early second century, as well as the epistle of Barnabas & the Shepherd of Hermas - all second century, and all have errors in them. So, being written in the first century is evidence of apostolic authorship, since there are errors in these early works, it does not warrant being inspired & included in the NT, like the canonical books.

 

[adf417]

1 Clement is the only non-canonical writing that is confirmed to have been written in the first century.

Yes, by some, that is the reason for the dating window of 80-140. All the early writings will have a dating window due to non-consensus.

1 Clement does contain errors in it, unlike the NT writings.

Errors in 1 Clement but not in the canonical writings??? You seem to address that here sufficiently. I will just use your quote Here in post #66 to address how “errors” in the NT are dealt with-

Do Luke's and Matthew's nativity stories contradict one another Sacred Scripture

There are a couple different views of Matthew’s & Luke’s genealogy. Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History claims that both are of Joseph’s genealogy - Matthew’s being natural, Luke’s by adoption: The Genealogy of Jesus Christ (by Eusebius) There is an alternative theory that Matthew’s is of Joseph’s, while Luke’s is of Mary’s. I used to have the YouTube video, but it must have been deleted. Either way, there is no contradiction.

The dating of the Didache is uncertain, the earliest being AD 70, but as late as AD 120

Uncertain maybe by some as the window frame suggests, but if this is problematic for you to be canonical then the Gospel fo Luke (80-130), Acts (80-130), and the Gospel of John (90-120) are equally problematic.

Source-

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Peace!!!

 

[Ammi]

The Church has not gone into apostasy, rather contains more and more Catholics (of all positions) who do not uphold the faith.

 

[Wannano]

Is it true that around 75% would fall into that category?

 

[Ammi]

I wouldnt doubt it. I personally meet resistance from Catholics all the time (concerning faith and morals). But it’s not something we can definitively measure.

On one issue alone, it is said 80% of Catholics contracept sex.

And divorce/remarriage is becoming more and more common and met with zero resistance.

 

[Wannano]

In Catholic terms is the Church the collection of people within it who came into it as an individual or does it refer to the Organization ?

 

[Ammi]

I think those are both ligitimate descriptions.

It’s an organization on one hand, and a body of believers on another.

One is a body of Teaching, the other a body of people.

 

[Ammi]

You raise a good question though.

Because many Catholics tout “the Church” as infallible and all pure. But the body of members (as a whole) is very wounded, failing, and corrupt.

 

[Wannano]

Please forgive me if I seem extreme but I get the feeling that Catholicism evolved rapidly, (from the collection of believers who were taken into the Church on the basis of individual repentance and taken out by Church discipline when they refused to uphold the faith, ) into a two handed powerful top down Organization where on one hand there was the pure or “religious” Hierarchy and on the other hand the laity who were “expected” not to be pure but to become “pure” by ritual in order to receive Christ within the Eucharist. Pentecost showed the Message to be “repent…and be baptized.”

Apostacy meaning an abandonment of a religious doctrinal teaching.

 

[Ammi]

Scripture is clear that leaders are rulers within the Church, and have authority. It is also clear that leaders can abuse their authority.

So a person in a position of authority does not guarantee them to be honoring authority, but sometimes “lording it over” others instead of using their position to serve Jesus and represent Him.

Abuse of position can be false teaching or avoiding to teach/admonish when necessary.

 

[Wannano]

I am now gone for the day!

 

[GKMotley]

I think I will refrain from the suggested action.

 

[Ammi]

Jesus was not a Christian. He was the Son of God who became Son of Man.

Nowhere have I heard Jesus called a Christian.

Christian’s were those who were called followers of Jesus.

 

[adf417]

Jesus was a Christian - not an idolatrous catholic.

Meeeee toooooo!!! Me no like those idolators…

 

[commenter]

It’s an organization on one hand, and a body of believers on another.

One is a body of Teaching, the other a body of people.

The Catholic Faith is always reliable. The Magisterium is reliable on matters of Faith and Morals.

Individual believers may have opinions or actions inconsistent with with the Faith, usually shaped by the current secular culture. This has nothing to do with whether the Faith is reliable for you or me to embrace.

 

[nearlycatholic]

I thought it was a reprobate priest that went into apostasy and started the great rebellion. Protestantism is the apostasy. The CC is still standing despite the incessant relentless attacks of Protestants and now “non-denominational” rebels. And they (muslims) aren’t killing Southern Baptists or Methodists in Africa.

 

[Ammi]

Yes. Unfortunately, we are in a time which leaders are divided, and pastors avoid Teaching and admonishing.

So the secular culture, and its prince, has gained a stronghold within the body of believers.

 

[commenter]

Because many Catholics tout “the Church” as infallible and all pure. But the body of members (as a whole) is very wounded, failing, and corrupt.

The Magisterium is still infallible, under certain conditions.

The body of members in 2020 not necessarily any more corrupt wounded or failing than other times. Confer Acts of the Apostles or Epistles.

The Church is Holy. It’s Holiness is not depending on the Holiness of it’s members but on Christ’s Holiness.
It is not holier in one century than another, nor holier in one country than another.

Christ doesn’t change in Holiness.

 

[Ammi]

Yes. And I dont plan on leaving Catholic Eucharist.

Yet, this is just getting tiresome, to be content with formal Teaching, while members diverge, and refrain from principles left and right.

God is good, and His hand in the Church is righteous. A few strive and suffer with Him, while many place seeking happiness as the priority, and justify lawlessness as a means to achieve their happiness and comfort.

They dont just leave the Church, but mingle with her, and influence and spread their heresy inside her.

 

[Ammi]

Most Catholics are completely unaware of the clever and craft of the Devil. Revelations describes this crafty infestation as “the deep things of Satan”.