Protestant OT books by Josephus

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Philobeto

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This was sent by a Protestant Pastor to my sister who is now a Baptist. Can you answer some of these accusations. Sincere thanks

Those extra books were never in the Old Testament. Josephus listed the Pentateuch books of the old testament that the Jews and the list is identical to what is in the King James today. Roman Catholic research is faulty. Josephus was a first century historian who worked for the Roman empire in the 1st century. Those aphorical books were added after St. Jerome did his Latin translation. That is recorded history you can check on it yourself and see.

The Old Testament Apocrypha consists of eleven or twelve books, depending upon how they are divided, that the Roman Catholic Church adds to the Old Testament. The Protestants reject these books as Holy Scripture for the following reasons.

1. The Apocrypha Has Different Doctrine And Practices Than Holy Scripture

There are doctrines and practices contained in the Apocrypha that are contrary to what the Scripture teaches. They include the following.

They Teach A Person Is Saved By Works

In the Apocrypha proof texts can be found to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification by human works and not faith alone. The Apocrypha contains the following verses.

For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life (Tobit 12:9).

In another place in Tobit it says.

So now, my children see what almsgiving accomplishes, and what injustice does it brings death! (Tobit 14:11).

In the Book of First Maccabees it says.

Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (First Maccabees 2:52).

The Bible, on the other hand, says that a person is saved by grace through faith. It is not based upon our good works.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works, so that no one may boast ([Ephesians 2:8).

The Non-biblical Doctrine Of Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha

The doctrine of purgatory - a place of purging between heaven and hell - is taught in the Apocrypha.
 
I can’t be specific but I remember somewhere where Jesus quoted from the old testament books that protestants have refused. Remember those books were used for 1500 years before the protestants rejected them.

I am anxiously awaiting a more learned response.

Yes it is true that the apocrypha supports purgatory which is why the protestants reject it.
 
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As far as Josephus goes, I believe the Pastor is correct in stating that Josephus lists the books of the Hebrew Scriptures (in Book 1 of his Contra Apionem) and that the deuterocanonical books do not appear on his list. The explanation, I think, is that those books had already been excluded from the Jewish canon long before Josephus’ day.
Philobeto said:
Josephus listed the Pentateuch books of the old testament
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Does the pastor use the term “Pentateuch” in this context? If so, he is mistaken. No one ever claimed that the deuterocanonical books are or were part of the Pentateuch, which is the name given to the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
 
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Philobeto said:
This was sent by a Protestant Pastor to my sister who is now a Baptist. Can you answer some of these accusations. Sincere thanks

Those extra books were never in the Old Testament.
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Look up the Septuagint. It contains all those books.
Josephus listed the Pentateuch books of the old testament that the Jews and the list is identical to what is in the King James today.
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That’s wonderful for him. But we don’t follow Josephus. We follow Christ. And Jesus Christ used the Septuagint OT, which contains all the books that the Catholic Church uses.
Roman Catholic research is faulty. Josephus was a first century historian who worked for the Roman empire in the 1st century. Those aphorical books were added after St. Jerome did his Latin translation. That is recorded history you can check on it yourself and see.
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Please do. You’ll find that St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate contained all the books in the Septuagint.
The Old Testament Apocrypha consists of eleven or twelve books, depending upon how they are divided, that the Roman Catholic Church adds to the Old Testament. The Protestants reject these books as Holy Scripture for the following reasons.

1. The Apocrypha Has Different Doctrine And Practices Than Holy Scripture

There are doctrines and practices contained in the Apocrypha that are contrary to what the Scripture teaches. They include the following.

They Teach A Person Is Saved By Works
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Let’s see what the New Testament says:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
In the Apocrypha proof texts can be found to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification by human works and not faith alone. The Apocrypha contains the following verses.

For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life (Tobit 12:9).
In another place in Tobit it says.

So now, my children see what almsgiving accomplishes, and what injustice does it brings death! (Tobit 14:11).
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Let’s see what the New Testament says:

Luke 11:41But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

cont’d
 
cont’d
In the Book of First Maccabees it says.

Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (First Maccabees 2:52).
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Let’s see what the New Testament says:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The Bible, on the other hand, says that a person is saved by grace through faith. It is not based upon our good works.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works, so that no one may boast ([Ephesians 2:8).
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God alone saves. But He only saves those who do good works. As for Eph 2:8, it is a description of the Sacraments. It is in Baptism, that we are saved through our faith:

Acts 22:16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Baptism is not our work. It is the operation of God:

Colossians 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The Non-biblical Doctrine Of Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha

The doctrine of purgatory - a place of purging between heaven and hell - is taught in the Apocrypha.
Click to expand...
Let’s see what the New Testament says:

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

A place where a man is saved by fire? Sounds like Purgatory to me.

I hope that helps.
 
Jimmy Akin, the senior apologist from Catholic Answers, made a YouTube video some years ago explaining that Protestants & the Pharisees (of which Josephus was a Pharisee) had the same OT books:

Jimmy Akin (Catholic Answers) “How did the Old Testament canon developed?” (begins around the 50 second mark)

Although he goes on to say Jesus & the disciples embraced the Septuagint that included the Deuterocanon, I made a post over the summer (which is now closed) that is based on a book written by a former Catholic, who agrees with this Protestant pastor, but using other arguments from mostly Catholic resources - including Jimmy Akin & others from Catholic Answers. Here is the link if you want to check it out:

Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller
 
TARRAT said:
I can’t be specific but I remember somewhere where Jesus quoted from the old testament books that protestants have refused.
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Sure, here’s a handful of examples.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Don’t forget that Jesus said that “You must be perfect as My Heavenly Father is perfect”. Since non are perfect we have to be perfected somewhere after here.
 
So Protestants accept Josephus but reject St Jerome. What else is new?
 
Philobeto said:
The Non-biblical Doctrine Of Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha

The doctrine of purgatory - a place of purging between heaven and hell - is taught in the Apocrypha.
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Where? Purgation is extant in scripture. The historic issue is the existence of an intermediate state/place.
 
Philobeto said:
Those extra books were never in the Old Testament. Josephus listed the Pentateuch books of the old testament that the Jews and the list is identical to what is in the King James today. Roman Catholic research is faulty. Josephus was a first century historian who worked for the Roman empire in the 1st century. Those aphorical books were added after St. Jerome did his Latin translation. That is recorded history you can check on it yourself and see.
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And taken directly from here:

HISTORY OF BLUE LETTER BIBLE​

Since the mid-1990’s, the Lord has reached millions of lives in over two hundred countries through Sowing Circle’s ministry of Blue Letter Bible. Our vision for creating a website offering Bible study reference tools was established in the mid 1990’s, at the beginning of the technological revolution. It has developed into one of the most advanced Bible centric study resources available offering a vast array of study tools that link off of Bible content pages. By God’s grace, Blue Letter Bible has fostered an in-depth understanding of the Bible, allowing God’s Word to permeate the hearts and minds of Christians around the world who are hungry to grow in the truth of Jesus Christ.
 
Welcome! Same old tired arguments that they must argue incessantly in order to justify their division. Sad.

Anyway, ask pastor how he knows that any books at all should be in the bible. Where did the “Sacred Table of Contents” come from?

Hint: It was NOT the reformation.

Oh, send him this:


And they are myths. Serious students of Holy Writ do not fall for the old man-made arguments that pastor is fronting.
 
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I don’t feel qualified to weigh in on the “historical” part of the argument, but a problem I have with the argument of “look at this part from a deuterocanonical, and observe how it appears to contradict with this book from the Protestant Bible! That means the deuterocanonical is wrong!” is that there’s no shortage of alleged contradictions between non-contested books. But I doubt the person offering these arguments against the deuterocanonical books plans to take books out of their Bible based on those arguments.
 
That the Pharisee’s in Jerusalem did not accept the Deuterocanon books has little to do with what other Jews accepted, especially outside of Israel…unless someone wants to argue that Jesus was a Pharisaic Jew! Josephus was a Pharisee so he is going to list the books in his bible. Others included more and the Septuagint had the books that the Catholic Church included in their OT.
 
72 Rabbis included the deuterocanonicals in the Septuagint. Well before Josephus’ day. In any case, if Josephus mentioned a number, say 22, it was 22 scrolls and not books. In which case, some scrolls contained more than one book as was customary. Josephus was more pharisaical in his beliefs which would have also accounted for a bias in what books were considered canonical.
 
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Dan_Defender said:
So Protestants accept Josephus but reject St Jerome. What else is new?
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I have always found it amazing that on this point Protestants appeal to authority of the old covenant over the Apostles and their successors.
 
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