Protestant OT books by Josephus

[De_Maria]

You included the words above them from a previous post, and attributed them to me, even though I was questioning their accuracy.

Not sure what you’re looking at. My computer shows the attribution to Philobeto.

Source where it is settled doctrine. …

The burden of proof is on you. I’ve accomplished what I intended to prove.

• The Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory was universally accepted in its entirety until the Great Schism with the Orthodox.
• Even then, the Orthodox continue to behave as though they believe in Purgatory, since they continue to pray for their beloved dead.
• It was Martin Luther who first rejected Purgatory, 15 centuries after the Doctrine was passed down by Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the discussion.

May God bless you and yours.

 

[JonNC]

Not sure what you’re looking at. My computer shows the attribution to Philobeto.

Exactly. Not me.

The burden of proof is on you. I’ve accomplished what I intended to prove.

No it isn’t. I asked the question. You made the claim.

It was Martin Luther who first rejected Purgatory, 15 centuries after the Doctrine was passed down by Jesus Christ.

Source and proof. I showed you where Purgatory was not dogmatics you rejected.

May God bless you and yours.

Likewise to you and yours.

 

[po18guy]

Blah blah blah ad nauseam.

Whoever argues against the teaching is simply wrong.

They have no authority to overrule God.

16th century Europeans had no authority to overrule God.

As we see, it is most uncomfortable being wrong.

One fine day, they will be exceedingly joyful for that which was EXTREMELY clearly written by Saint Paul and declared by the only Church with the authority to do so.

But, the human argues and argues and argues.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Keep in mind, sometimes when Jesus & the NT writers cite verses, the original verse is from the books Catholics & Protestants agree on rather than the later Deuterocanonical books. And Jesus & the NT writers also quote books not found in either Catholic or Protestant OTs, like 1 Enoch & the Assumption of Moses.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

72 Rabbis included the deuterocanonicals in the Septuagint.

The origination of this legend of 72 rabbis translating the OT into Greek (the Septuagint) was limited to the translation of the 5 books of Moses, not the entire OT.

Josephus was more pharisaical in his beliefs which would have also accounted for a bias in what books were considered canonical.

The apostle Paul was also a Pharisee, who referred to the OT as “the Law & the Prophets” (Romans 3:21) - the same expression Jesus used when He spoke with the Pharisees (Luke 16:14-16), which He stated “They have Moses & the Prophets” (v.29).

 

[De_Maria]

The origination of this legend of 72 rabbis translating the OT into Greek (the Septuagint) was limited to the translation of the 5 books of Moses, not the entire OT.

It was the entire OT. The Hebrew speaking Jewish community rejected those books written in Greek and accepted only those which were written Hebrew. The five books of Moses were written in Hebrew.

The apostle Paul was also a Pharisee, who referred to the OT as “the Law & the Prophets” (Romans 3:21) - the same expression Jesus used when He spoke with the Pharisees (Luke 16:14-16), which He stated “They have Moses & the Prophets” (v.29).

The entire New Testament brims with references to the Deuterocanonicals. I especially like this one:

James 2:James 2:21 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? …23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

1 Maccabees 2:52 Was not Abraham found faithful in trial,
and it was credited to him as righteousness?

 

[BartholomewB]

72 Rabbis included the deuterocanonicals in the Septuagint.

The origination of this legend of 72 rabbis translating the OT into Greek (the Septuagint) was limited to the translation of the 5 books of Moses, not the entire OT.

It was the entire OT. The Hebrew speaking Jewish community rejected those books written in Greek and accepted only those which were written Hebrew. The five books of Moses were written in Hebrew.

@RaisedCatholic is correct. The legend of the seventy-two translators, working separately but each producing an identical Greek text, has to do with the original project to translate the Pentateuch alone, which Josephus calls the Nomos, the Law (Antiquities 12.11). The term “Septuagint” is, however, applied to a large collection of Jewish writings in Greek, including, but not restricted to, the whole of the canonical Old Testament.

 

[mcq72]

The entire New Testament brims with references to the Deuterocanonicals. I especially like this one:

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

1 Maccabees 2:52 Was not Abraham found faithful in trial,
and it was credited to him as righteousness?

“And he believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness”

Genesis 15:6

This is is the scripture Paul and Macabees is referencing .

So if NT writers reference a
Hebrew scripture which is also referenced by a “deutero” book, the deutero book must also be scripture ( and not " deutero")?

Indeed Paul might be referencing and posing same question as Macabees, but the “scripture” Paul references is Genesis.

Now I wonder if the other claimed deutero referencing in NT are also really found in Hebrew writ first.

 

[mcq72]

That’s wonderful for him. But we don’t follow Josephus. We follow Christ. And Jesus Christ used the Septuagint OT, which contains all the books that the Catholic Church uses

Interesting. Then why did even the Catholic Church also cut out some of the Septuagint books, that Jesus supposedly used as canonical?

And the “Hebrews” were split, divided on " canon", that is Jesus and Josephus were at odds on this ? Maybe Josephus was a Luther prototype (even Jerome proto type)?

I believe Jesus quoted scripture 78 times… I have read all were not deutero.

I have read NT quotes OT over 200 times, and perhaps only two implied references to deutero books.

I believe His quotes sometimes follow Hebrew wording and other times Greek translation wording.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

Yes the 5 books to start, but St Jerome said not only the 5 books but later the entire OT was translated.

"It is not known when the other books of the Bible were rendered into Greek. The grandson of Ben Sira (132 B.C.), in the prologue to his translation of his grandfather’s work, speaks of the “Law, Prophets, and the rest of the books” as being already current in his day. A Greek Chronicles is mentioned by Eupolemus (middle of second century B.C.); Aristeas, the historian, quotes Job; a foot-note to the Greek Esther seems to show that that book was in circulation before the end of the second century B.C.; and the Septuagint Psalter is quoted in I Macc. vii. 17. It is therefore more than probable that the whole of the Bible was translated into Greek before the beginning of the Christian era".
-Jewish Encyclopedia

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes the 5 books to start, but St Jerome said not only the 5 books but later the entire OT was translated.

Yes. that’s what I said. But the original “seventy” (or “seventy-two”) translators were commissioned to translate the Pentateuch alone. The rest of the OT books were translated in later centuries, by different people in different places and at different times.

 

[De_Maria]

Interesting. Then why did even the Catholic Church also cut out some of the Septuagint books, that Jesus supposedly used as canonical?

The Catholic Church did not.

And the “Hebrews” were split, divided on " canon", that is Jesus and Josephus were at odds on this ? Maybe Josephus was a Luther prototype (even Jerome proto type)?

No. Josephus was a Jewish priest. He was not a Christian.

I believe Jesus quoted scripture 78 times… I have read all were not deutero.

Jesus echos Tobit:

Matthew 11:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Tobit 10:13
Tobiah left Raguel, full of happiness and joy, and he blessed the Lord of heaven and earth, the King of all, for making his journey so successful.

I have read NT quotes OT over 200 times, and perhaps only two implied references to deutero books.

Two is enough.

I believe His quotes sometimes follow Hebrew wording and other times Greek translation wording.

Then, you’ve basically proven the Catholic position. Since the Hebrews denied the Greek OT because Christ used it. And Protestants followed their example.

 

[SyCarl]

I believe Lord of heaven and earth comes from Genesis.

That I may make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that thou take not a wife for my son, of the daughters of the Chanaanites, among whom I dwell: But that thou go to my own country and kindred, and take a wife from thence for my son Isaac.

(Gen 24:3-4 Douay-Rheims)

 

[mcq72]

Then, you’ve basically proven the Catholic position.

Did not know we were or arguing what translation of bible Jesus used. He had two hands, one to hold Hebrew scroll and the other to hold Greek scroll. He used all things to reach people.

That he held or referred to scripture from Septuagint does not help us determine canon.

The Catholic Church did not. ( cut
books from Sept.)

So you have Macabees 3 and 4?

 

[mcq72]

Since the Hebrews denied the Greek OT because Christ used it.

That could be faulty reasoning.

Yes, the early church used the Septuagint. Yes, the Jews may have wanted to seperate themselves from both Jew and gentile Christians. They may have wanted to return to their linguistic roots. You do not need to change canon to do this. After all, the Septuagint was not initially put together for Jewish purposes as was the original Hebrew bible.

Not sure deutero books project a Jesus Christ anymore than Hebrew bible. If they truly had anti Christian sentiment, enough to defraud true writ, I could think of a few choice books or passages to leave out more than deutero books.

 

[TARRAT]

What a disigenuous answer. Jesus not only quoted from those books but taught His disciples from them and they used them as scriptures and it was used by many faithful Jews. His quotes were quotes not allusions.

 

[mcq72]

What a disigenuous answer. Jesus not only quoted from those books

Not that quoting or not quoting proves canon, but what deutero books did Jesus quote, and what were quotes, that are not also in original Hebrew bible?

 

[TARRAT]

I think CathoRick answered that question earlier.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

It was the entire OT. The Hebrew speaking Jewish community rejected those books written in Greek and accepted only those which were written Hebrew. The five books of Moses were written in Hebrew.

@RaisedCatholic is correct.

No, he’s not.

The legend of the seventy-two translators, working separately but each producing an identical Greek text, has to do with the original project to translate the Pentateuch alone,

The original legend is to translate every book in the world. It is only later that modern scholars suspect it was only the Pentateuch. They have no proof that it was not the entire Septuagint and it doesn’t make sense that it wasn’t the entire canon of Hebrew Scriptures because the Greek speaking population needed them all translated.

which Josephus calls the Nomos, the Law (Antiquities 12.11). The term “Septuagint” is, however, applied to a large collection of Jewish writings in Greek, including, but not restricted to, the whole of the canonical Old Testament.

Which is the OT that Jesus and the Apostles used.

 

[De_Maria]

Did not know we were or arguing what translation of bible Jesus used. He had two hands, one to hold Hebrew scroll and the other to hold Greek scroll.

That makes no sense. It sounds as though you just want to say high sounding things that may impress some people, but don’t care if they have any merit. Why would Jesus carry two separate scrolls? In fact, He didn’t carry any. He read them in the Temple. And they were using Greek texts, thus, the Septuagint.

He used all things to reach people.

Not true. You just made that up. There’s no possible way you can even prove that statement. But I can point out one thing that He didn’t use to disprove your words.

That he held or referred to scripture from Septuagint does not help us determine canon.

Yes, it does. Because the Septuagint contains the Deuterocanon.

So you have Macabees 3 and 4?

The earliest Septuagint version we posses is in the Vaticanus Codex and does not have any of the Maccabees. By virtue of the authority which Jesus Christ gave the Catholic Church to bind and loose, She included Maccabees 1 and 2 which are alluded to in the New Testament, both in the mention of Purgatory and to dead Saints interceding on behalf of the living.