Protestant OT books by Josephus

[SyCarl]

Matthew 6:19-20 does not really follow Sirach although I think you meant Sirach 29:14.

Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through, and steal. But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

(Mat 6:19-20 Douay-Rheims)

Place thy treasure in the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold.

(Sir 29:14 Douay-Rheims)

Matthew 16:18 seems to follow this:

I said: In the midst of my days I shall go to the gates of hell: I sought for the residue of my years. Hell… Sheol, or Hades, the region of the dead.

(Isa 38:10 DRB)

With respect to Matthew 24:15, Jesus himself tells us this is from Daniel.

When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

(Mat 24:15 DRB)

In the parable of the sower Jesus appears to speak of the reverse of Jeremiah 17.

And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh. And the leaf thereof shall be green, and in the time of drought it shall not be solicitous, neither shall it cease at any time to bring forth fruit.

(Jer 17:8 DRB)

Mark 9:48 comes from Isaiah.

And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh.

(Isa 66:24 DRB)And it came to pass, when the burnt offering was ended, that Jehu commanded his soldiers and captains, saying: Go in, and kill them: let none escape. And the soldiers and captains slew them with the edge of the sword, and cast them out: and they went into the city of the temple of Baal,
(2Ki 10:25 DRB)

For Luke 21:24, killing by the edge of the sword is used many times. An example.

And it came to pass, when the burnt offering was ended, that Jehu commanded his soldiers and captains, saying: Go in, and kill them: let none escape. And the soldiers and captains slew them with the edge of the sword, and cast them out: and they went into the city of the temple of Baal,

(2Ki 10:25 DRB)

Acts 17:29 could come from many places. An example.

For in that day a man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your hands have made for you to sin.

(Isa 31:7 DRB)

to be continued

.

 

[SyCarl]

continued

Romans 9’s potter imagery comes from both Isaiah and Jeremiah although Wisdom is more specific about the vessels.

And I went down into the potter’s house, and behold he was doing a work on the wheel. And the vessel was broken which he was making of clay with his hands: and turning he made another vessel, as it seemed good in his eyes to make it. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: Cannot I do with you, as this potter, O house of Israel, saith the Lord? behold as clay is in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

(Jer 18:1-6 DRB)

Again for James 5:3, as for your first example, there does appear to be a great deal of similarity to Sirach.

Your gold and silver is cankered: and the rust of them shall be for a testimony against you and shall eat your flesh like fire. You have stored up to yourselves wrath against the last days.

(Jas 5:3 DRB)

Lose thy money for thy brother and thy friend: and hide it not under a stone to be lost. Place thy treasure in the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

The legend of the seventy-two translators, working separately but each producing an identical Greek text, has to do with the original project to translate the Pentateuch alone

Correct, it comes from the legendary Letter of Aristeas which tells the legend of the “70” (or “72”) Jews who translated the Torah into Greek. Around A.D. 35, Philo of Alexandria cited the Letter, which limited the Greek translation to just the Pentateuch, not the rest of the OT which didn’t get added to the Septuagint until much later. But I don’t think you’re going to be able to convince De Maria of that, but it was a good try.

Now I wonder if the other claimed deutero referencing in NT are also really found in Hebrew writ first.

There are roughly 300 NT terms to refer to OT passages (e.g.: “It is written,” “the Scriptures say,” “Have you not read?” etc). 100% refer to books from the Hebrew Bible. Although the NT “alludes” to books from the Deuterocanon (just as it alludes, and even quotes from books not found in the Catholic OT), it never actually quotes a book from the Deuterocanon independent of the Hebrew Bible.

 

[mcq72]

Sure, here’s a handful of examples.( where Jesus quotes protestant rejected books)

Judith 16:17 and Mark 9:48 reference Isaiah 66:24

“the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched”.

So this particular verse is first mentioned in Hebrew bible also.

 

[BartholomewB]

I sometimes wonder about Eph 6:14-17 compared with Wis 5:18-20 (or in some Bibles, 19-21).

Wis:
… he will put on righteousness as a breastplate, and wear impartial justice as a helmet; he will take holiness as an invincible shield, and sharpen stern wrath for a sword,

Eph:
Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

[TARRAT]

Jesus’ followers didn’t believe it was scripture, evidently neither did the Holy Spirit.

 

[TARRAT]

I know by 2000 years of being led by the Holy Spirit. I am led by facts and history not by how I feel about it.

 

[mcq72]

but a problem I have with the argument of “look at this part from a deuterocanonical, and observe how it appears to contradict with this book from the Protestant Bible!

And yet isnt this partly what we do with many other books (some gnostic) to declare them " un God breathed"?

Historical acuracy, authorship, doctrinal teaching have their part in declaring something holy scripture.

Even the Catholic Church has deemed some books found in some copies of the Septuagint uncanonical for said reasons while Orthodox retained them.

 

[mcq72]

I sometimes wonder about Eph 6:14-17 compared with Wis 5:18-20 (or in some Bibles, 19-21).

Wis:
… he will put on righteousness as a breastplate, and wear impartial justice as a helmet ; he will take holiness as an invincible shield , and sharpen stern wrath for a sword ,

Eph:
Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness , and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke… Isaiah 59:17

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Psalms 30:5

 

[BartholomewB]

Thank you, @mcq72! So Paul and the author of Wisdom are drawing on a common source in the canonical OT, rather than one from the other, at least in the case of “the breastplate of righteousness” and “the helmet of salvation.” But what about the “shield” and the “sword”? Could that similarity be just a coincidence?

 

[De_Maria]

TARRAT:

What a disigenuous answer. Jesus not only quoted from those books

Not that quoting or not quoting proves canon, but what deutero books did Jesus quote, and what were quotes, that are not also in original Hebrew bible?

Why would that matter? Since they are all inspired by the same Spirit, that supports the inspiration of the Deuterocanon.

And yet isnt this partly what we do with many other books (some gnostic) to declare them " un God breathed"?

Historical acuracy, authorship, doctrinal teaching have their part in declaring something holy scripture.

Even the Catholic Church has deemed some books found in some copies of the Septuagint uncanonical for said reasons while Orthodox retained them.

Your basic problem is that you don’t agree with the authority that Jesus Christ established to Teach all that He commanded. So, you basically insert your authority against the authority of Christ which is vested in His Church.

 

[mcq72]

So, you basically insert your authority against the authority of Christ which is vested in His Church.

Yes, one church authority differing with another church authority. One sector of Christianity having one conviction and another sector it’s own

Anyways, what does that have to do with another church (Orthodox) having more books than CC? Are they bucking Jesus also ?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

But what about the “shield” and the “sword”? Could that similarity be just a coincidence?

Paul does not use a specific metonym (like “It is written” or “the Scripture says”) here to indicate this is a reference to OT inspired Scripture, no-more than when he cites other uninspired writings, like the play “Thais” from Menander or Epimenides.

 

[mcq72]

Why would that matter? Since they are all inspired by the same Spirit, that supports the inspiration of the Deuterocanon.

Evidences, reasoning always matters.

The Word of God must be discerned and apprehended by faith, and that a gift.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, one church authority differing with another church authority. One sector of Christianity having one conviction and another sector it’s own

Anyways, what does that have to do with another church (Orthodox) having more books than CC?

Sounds like you’re moving the goal posts again. The discussion is about Josephus, the Hebrew OT, the Septuagint version that the Catholic Church uses and the Protestants following the anti-Christian Jewish version of the OT. Now, you’ve injected the Orthodox.

Let me guess, because they use a different version of the Septuagint? Well, you’d be wrong, because I don’t think the Orthodox have really settled on which version of Scripture they prefer. Some use 88 books. Some use more than a hundred. Some have begun to use the 66 book version. Aaand, the Catholic Church has never issued an objection to the Orthodox using whatever version they prefer. Nor, to my knowledge, has the Orthodox ever objected to any books used by the Catholic Church. But, the Catholic Church has merely said that the 73 books in the Latin Vulgate, are inspired.

Are they bucking Jesus also ?

Not in this matter. They bucked Jesus when they went into schism with relation to the Catholic Church. They divided the body of Christ, at that point.

But, in so far as the Scriptures go, they also accept the Septuagint OT, they also are following Jesus in this matter.

 

[mcq72]

no-more than when he cites other uninspired writings, like the play “Thais” from Menander or Epimenides

Agree

I recall Paul at Mars Hill, where he uses what is culturally given to him, the “statue” to the unknown god.

“I become all things to all men so that some might be saved”

If there was a better way to say something, even if related to Hebrew text, Paul, even Jesus, may have used the Greek, even possibly a deutero phrase. Although most of the time Jesus referenced Hebrew text, He may have used Greek deutero phrasing once or twice. After all, the deuteros were Jewish religious texts though not on par with perfect God breathed writ. Still, they may have been " popular", well read, just as the Roman church letter to the Corinthians was in early church, or Pilgrims Progress was (is?) today.

I say this because one commentary on one phrase gave a possible deutero connection, though it was in Hebrew text also but not as succintly.

I feel admitting this does not impugn our position on deutero books, in fact strenghthens them.

I refer to James 1:19, Barnes commentary:" So the son of Sirach, “Be swift to hear, and with deep consideration (ἐν μακροθυμίᾳ en makrothumia) give answer.”

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/james/1.htm

 

[mcq72]

Sounds like you’re moving the goal posts again.

You are not admitting to original goal posts, that the CC , like Protestants, have their own vetting criteria for what is writ, and used it in restricting deutero books, P’s restricted all of them , C’s a handful.

But, the Catholic Church has merely said that the 73 books in the Latin Vulgate, are inspired.

Sorry, goal post has two uprights. What goes between them is “merely” a score. What is outside them is “merely” a non score . The posts cut both ways.

The church does not merely approve books without disaproving of others simultaneously.

But, in so far as the Scriptures go, they also accept the Septuagint OT, they also are following Jesus in this matter.

So if you accept more books than CC, you still follow Jesus on the matter, but less than CC you dont follow Him?

 

[De_Maria]

You are not admitting to original goal posts,

My reference to goalposts is to what is being discussed. When you are proved wrong, rather than admit it, you simply change the subject.

that the CC , like Protestants, have their own vetting criteria for what is writ,

We are not discussing the vetting criteria of the Protestants.

and used it in restricting deutero books, P’s restricted all of them ,

And they were wrong to do so.

C’s a handful.

The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and has the God given mandate to Teach in place of Jesus.

Sorry, goal post has two uprights. What goes between them is “merely” a score. What is outside them is “merely” a non score . The posts cut both ways.

You can deny the truth, but the truth remains true whether you like it or not.

The church does not merely approve books without disaproving of others simultaneously.

That’s either/or logic. The Catholic Church holds both/and logic.

If a man goes to the store and says, “I like this pair of shoes.” That doesn’t mean that he despises the rest. The Catholic Church approved one set of books and declared anathema on anyone who denies that those books are inspired. She made no official mention of any others.

So if you accept more books than CC, you still follow Jesus on the matter, but less than CC you dont follow Him?

Its not a matter of more or less books. The Jews rejected the Greek books because Catholics were using them. The Jews rejected the Septuagint because Christ had used it. Then the Protestants followed the anti-Christian example of the Jews. Catholics which includes the Orthodox at that time, follow Christ.

 

[mcq72]

If a man goes to the store and says, “I like this pair of shoes.” That doesn’t mean that he despises the rest

No one is saying to despise non canonical writings.

So are you saying the CC has chosen some books as canon, all the rest have not been judged?

When you choose a pair of shoes you have not chosen all the others you have seen.

The Jews rejected the Greek books because Catholics were using them. The Jews rejected the Septuagint because Christ had used it

Silly I think, and slightly anti semetic as to integrity of scholarship (discernment) and reverence to God breathed writ, that they themselves were God’s custodians down to and for us. Even Paul cites them for this, “(the Jews) having the Oracle’s of God”.

Silly because Jesus cited most often from Pent, and Prophets ( either from Hebrew or Greek texts) and the so called " anti Christian" Jews didn’t cut these books out.

Finally do you think non Christian Jews stopped using Septuagint, especially those in diaspora? Was it not enough for non Christian Jews not to accept the sacred writings of Jewish Christians from the pen of Matt. Mark Luke and John etc…that was the true differentiation, not use of deutero books.

Interesting that Gentile Christians should critique and judge Jews on their own “canon”.

 

[mcq72]

"Rather, the available evidence indicates that Jerome consistently excluded the deu-terocanonical books from the Christian canon of Scripture, and that his use of the term “apocrypha” in the

Prol. Gal.

intends to reflect negatively on the value of these books.

"The Old Testament 'Apocrypha' in Jerome's Canonical Theory," Journal of Early Christian Studies 20 (2012) | Edmon Gallagher - Academia.eduThe_Old_Testament_Apocrypha_in_Jeromes_Canonical_Theory_Journal_of_Early_Christian_Studies_20_2012