Protestant Pastors Who Marry and Divorce (And Remarry!)

[pnewton]

Are any Catholics going to address the “except for porneia” phrase?

“But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of [porneia], makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Quick paraphrase: No divorce or remarriage unless. I just want to make sure we all saw the exception, which is indicated by the word “except.”

Again, if you diagram the sentence, you will see that this clause is only linked to divorce, not re-marriage.

One more thing about this passage. I think we all agree that one person can not sin for another, or make another sin. The causality here can not be more than a temptation, as when Jesus refers to one who causes one of the little ones to stumble. Sin is still an act of the individual will.

 

[cooterhein]

Again, if you diagram the sentence, you will see that this clause is only linked to divorce, not re-marriage.

Is he talking about an actual divorce that actually ends an actual marriage?

 

[PRmerger]

Even the scandals, bickering, etc. behind the scenes haven’t discouraged us to the point of leaving.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Picasso. I just want to add that I hope that you do not ever reach the “point of leaving” the Catholic Church (or perhaps you only meant your parish?).

Stay in a Church that proclaims the Truth and one ought to conform his beliefs to that Truth; one ought not find a church that you feel proclaims your truth.

Church shopping (not that you were even alluding to that, Picasso) really bemuses me. Isn’t it the height of arrogance to shop around for a church that preaches what you believe?

 

[Dokimas]

I believe this is one of the many reasons the Church chose the discipline of celibacy.

This is the CC’s choice not God’s, IMO, and that’s according to the NT.

There were too many scandals similar to this, men were torn between their marriage and the needs of the parish.

 

[pnewton]

Is he talking about an actual divorce that actually ends an actual marriage?

That is what one translation said. I believe that the putting away of one’s wife is divorce and an actual marriage is explicit in the meaning of “wife”. What I do not see in this passage is a way to attach remarriage to this exception.

 

[cooterhein]

That is what one translation said. I believe that the putting away of one’s wife is divorce and an actual marriage is explicit in the meaning of “wife”. What I do not see in this passage is a way to attach remarriage to this exception.

Well, I was wondering if you could see your way to the actual end of an actual marriage without seeking to establish that the marriage was fake in some way. Is the Catholic POV flexible enough to allow for the actual end of an actual marriage?

 

[PRmerger]

Are any Catholics going to address the “except for porneia” phrase?

“But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of [porneia], makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Quick paraphrase: No divorce or remarriage unless. I just want to make sure we all saw the exception, which is indicated by the word “except.” It lets you know that those who divorce and remarry do not commit adultery if the exception is relevant to them.

The Greek word for “adultery” is moichatai.

It is a mistranslation to say that porneia means adultery, or fornication. (For how could married couples “fornicate”?)

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t object to you believing what you want to believe. Seems the other way around.

No Christian ought to say “I don’t object to you believing what you want to believe.”

If someone says he’s a Christian but proclaims, “I believe Jesus never rose from the dead”, you wouldn’t object, Doki?

 

[PRmerger]

Haven’t you brought into the picture a third person not yet in our discussion?

I’m sorry. I don’t understand.

 

[PRmerger]

We ALL live in glass homes (ALL have sinned.).

Well, clearly, if you’re a Christian you don’t take the “all have sinned” literally. You believe in exceptions, yes?

 

[pnewton]

Well, I was wondering if you could see your way to the actual end of an actual marriage without seeking to establish that the marriage was fake in some way. Is the Catholic POV flexible enough to allow for the actual end of an actual marriage?

If by actual marriage you mean a sacramental marriage (one “joined together” by God), then no, the Catholic does not see this as possible. This is based on the other Scripture that no man may tear this asunder.

 

[PRmerger]

Is the Catholic POV flexible enough to allow for the actual end of an actual marriage?

The only end to an “actual marriage” is death.

If it’s an “actual marriage”, then they have become ONE FLESH and no man can declare them separated. Not even the Church.

 

[cooterhein]

If by actual marriage you mean a sacramental marriage (one “joined together” by God), then no, the Catholic does not see this as possible. This is based on the other Scripture that no man may tear this asunder.

Right, right, no man may tear it asunder. So no man can do it. We get that. But then Jesus also appears to be talking about actual marriages (not fake ones) that actually end. So no man tears them asunder, but someone dissolved it…could it be the one who joined those people in marriage in the first place?

If you do see your way to an exception that entails an actual end to an actual marriage, the next step is to look at the possibility of adultery. Adultery is extramarital philandering and infidelity between a married person and someone other than their spouse, so if we’re looking at people whose actual marriages have actually ended (thus leaving them actually unmarried), they’re not in much of a position to commit adultery, correct? That seems like something that would have more to do with people who got a divorce but are still married in the eyes of God.

I think we can agree that a married person must have sexual relations with no one besides the one they’re married to. What we can’t agree on is the possibility of an actual end to an actual marriage. But if that does sometimes happen (as Jesus seems to indicate), can we agree that such a person would be free to remarry with no possibility of adultery, provided that they are not married in God’s eyes?

 

[Dokimas]

No Christian ought to say “I don’t object to you believing what you want to believe.”

If someone says he’s a Christian but proclaims, “I believe Jesus never rose from the dead”, you wouldn’t object, Doki?

You’re loosing me. What’s going on here? How are you coming up with your understanding of what I said? It’s very far from what I said or meant!!

 

[Dokimas]

Well, clearly, if you’re a Christian you don’t take the “all have sinned” literally. You believe in exceptions, yes?

I know I’m a sinner. I know what Paul said. I know Jesus died for ALL.

 

[Dokimas]

If by actual marriage you mean a sacramental marriage (one “joined together” by God), then no, the Catholic does not see this as possible. This is based on the other Scripture that no man may tear this asunder.

Am I married to my seeing how we were not married by the CC or it’s representative?

A follow up question: if I choose to become a catholic and my wife does not, can I get an annulment and be as if I never was married?

 

[PRmerger]

I know I’m a sinner. I know what Paul said. I know Jesus died for ALL.

This is very Catholic of you to say, Doki!

But it still is a fact that you don’t believe that ALL have sinned.

You believe, I daresay, in millions of exceptions.

One trenchant one is, of course, Jesus Christ.

Others are babies.

And those who cannot will to sin.

And, I would then add, if there are indeed exceptions, and ALL have not actually sinned, then there’s room to discuss Mary’s sinlessness. But that, of course, is fodder for another thread.

 

[PRmerger]

Am I married to my seeing how we were not married by the CC or it’s representative?

Were you and she free to marry each other? That is, were either of you already married to others?

EDIT: just so we’re clear: the CC does not state that for a marriage to be valid one has to be married in the CC. The CC recognizes the marriage of those who were married in Christian, and, yes, even non-Christian churches.

A follow up question: if I choose to become a catholic and my wife does not, can I get an annulment and be as if I never was married?

An annulment is *not *“as if I never was married.”

An annulment states you were never married in the first place.

If it was a marriage, it cannot be annulled. Period.

 

[PRmerger]

But then Jesus also appears to be talking about actual marriages (not fake ones) that actually end.

This is not correct.

If you do see your way to an exception that entails an actual end to an actual marriage, the next step is to look at the possibility of adultery.

No. There is no exception that entails an actual end to an actual marriage.

If it’s a marriage, it cannot be dissolved, except by death. Period.

What we can’t agree on is the possibility of an actual end to an actual marriage.

Well, that’s not exactly correct either. The actual end to an actual marriage is death.

But if that does sometimes happen (as Jesus seems to indicate), can we agree that such a person would be free to remarry with no possibility of adultery, provided that they are not married in God’s eyes?

Huh?

 

[cooterhein]

Huh?

I’m sorry, I wasn’t talking to you. I am looking for responses from pnewton, though.