Protestant? right

[hoosierdaddy]

The word “achieve” does not necessarily mean “earn by your own merit.” It can mean simply “get where you need to be.” “He ran the race; he achieved the goal.”

**All Christians are “saints” but we are also all sinners – at least that is what St. John tells me in his first Epistle.

The process of canonization simply identifies those whom the Church recognizes, through her teaching authority, to be definitively among those who have achieved (???) final blessedness. And the matter of the “deadness” of the Saints is not a rhetorical point at all, since the Saints now live in Christ, and as we read in the Gospels and in Revelation, our God is the God “of the living.”**

**Fair enough. I see what you mean on the “achieve” issue.

Yes, we are saints and we are sinners. Didn’t Martin Luther believe this too?

Since you cannot know for sure if you are going to heaven when you die, how do you know that one single “Saint” went to heaven when they died? Did you go up to heaven and see them there?

Yes, God is the God of the living. But Peter, Paul, and Mary haven’t shown up on my doorstep yet. I try to be more concerned with the living saints on this earth than those who have went on before. In the presence of the Lord, I doubt they need our attention. **

 

[water]

Since you cannot know for sure if you are going to heaven when you die, how do you know that one single “Saint” went to heaven when they died? Did you go up to heaven and see them there?

**Show me where in the Bible says St. John is in Heaven? Do you believe he is in Heaven now? Do you have to take a trip to Heaven to see if he is there?

We don’t have to go to Heaven to know, but by God’s graces, these Saints intercede for us. Our prayers are heard; miracles cannot be proved by scientific method. Therefore, those Saints have been canonized for. **

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**Show me where in the Bible says St. John is in Heaven? Do you believe he is in Heaven now? Do you have to take a trip to Heaven to see if he is there?

We don’t have to go to Heaven to know, but by God’s graces, these Saints intercede for us. Our prayers are heard; miracles cannot be proved by scientific method. Therefore, those Saints have been canonized for. **

You err because it is not my belief that I cannot know if I will go to heaven. It is your belief. So if you don’t know if you will go to heaven, how do you know if one single “Saint” went to heaven? Did you go up to heaven and see them there? Did you say hello for me?

I can believe that John is in heaven right now based on revelation from God through Scripture. Also, I believe that I can know I will go to heaven. What do you know, John himself said in the Bible that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

My prayers are heard by the Father, and the Son intercedes for me. You can’t show me a verse in Scripture that says the saints are praying for you personally.

 

[DeFide]

…My prayers are heard by the Father, and the Son intercedes for me. You can’t show me a verse in Scripture that says the saints are praying for you personally.

I can. But I’ll refer you to my post in the following thread so that it doesn’t de-rail this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=128905

 

[mercygate]

Fair enough. I see what you mean on the “achieve” issue.

Yes, we are saints and we are sinners. Didn’t Martin Luther believe this too?

Maybe Luther did believe it. 95% of what Christians believe is the same. Luther also believed in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her perpetual virginity.

Since you cannot know for sure if you are going to heaven when you die, how do you know that one single “Saint” went to heaven when they died? Did you go up to heaven and see them there?

The evidence of their lives of “heroic sanctity” and the affirmation of miracles attributed to their intercession allow the Church to discern that a person has gained final beatitude.

**

Yes, God is the God of the living. But Peter, Paul, and Mary haven’t shown up on my doorstep yet. I try to be more concerned with the living saints on this earth than those who have went on before. In the presence of the Lord, I doubt they need our attention.

**Actually, it is not so much that we are concerned with those “who have went *[sic] *on before” as that we are the beneficiaries of their sanctity. James tells us that “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” The Saints are the truly righteous, who are perfected in charity, and are in full possession of “the mind of Christ.” We believe that “in the presence of the Lord” – to use your phrase – they are of one mind and heart with him, and since we know he loves us and cares for us, we believe that they do too.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Maybe Luther did believe it. 95% of what Christians believe is the same. Luther also believed in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her perpetual virginity.

And I reject these three things that Luther believed.

The evidence of their lives of “heroic sanctity” and the affirmation of miracles attributed to their intercession allow the Church to discern that a person has gained final beatitude.

This doesn’t fly. One could say while they’re alive that the evidence of their life proves that they will go to heaven but your very beliefs forbid this. If you can’t know yourself if you are going to go to heaven, you absolutely most definitely most certainly cannot know that anyone else who has died has indeed gone to heaven. The fact that you believe they have went straight to heaven means that you believe we get to heaven on our own merits. 'tis not the case.

Actually, it is not so much that we are concerned with those “who have went *[sic] *on before” as that we are the beneficiaries of their sanctity. James tells us that “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” The Saints are the truly righteous, who are perfected in charity, and are in full possession of “the mind of Christ.” We believe that “in the presence of the Lord” – to use your phrase – they are of one mind and heart with him, and since we know he loves us and cares for us, we believe that they do too.

Fair enough. I don’t agree with you but it’s not something I believe people should divide over. However, the phrase “in the presence of the Lord” is not my phrase. It’s straight out of Scripture. I don’t believe it lied.

 

[water]

You err because it is not my belief that I cannot know if I will go to heaven. It is your belief. So if you don’t know if you will go to heaven, how do you know if one single “Saint” went to heaven? Did you go up to heaven and see them there? Did you say hello for me?

I can believe that John is in heaven right now based on revelation from God through Scripture. Also, I believe that I can know I will go to heaven. What do you know, John himself said in the Bible that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

My prayers are heard by the Father, and the Son intercedes for me. You can’t show me a verse in Scripture that says the saints are praying for you personally.

**You know better than this. The Church has already given you proof of those saints; you guys just see it as ‘the work of satan’.

Of course, it is in the Bible that says ‘prayers of the saints’. It is you who says everything has to be in the Bible, and you had failed to show me where exactly in the Bible that it says St. John in Heaven.

Our prayers are heard through the answers to our prayers and through miracles. Tell me you never believe in the miracles. **

 

[mercygate]

I can believe that John is in heaven right now based on revelation from God through Scripture. Also, I believe that I can know I will go to heaven. What do you know, John himself said in the Bible that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

What cannot be demonstrated from Scripture is that we are guaranteed to keep eternal life once we “have” it. If we were not free, which this side of eternity must mean the possibility of turning away from God, we would not truly have free will. Without free will, we cannot love. God would never take from us our ability to love.

My prayers are heard by the Father, and the Son intercedes for me. You can’t show me a verse in Scripture that says the saints are praying for you personally.

But we do know that “a great multitude which no man [can] number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, [is] standing before thethrone” (in other words: Saints) and that an angel with a golden censer mingles much incense “with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before thethrone.” If a Saint in heaven is perfectly united to the will of the Lord, how is it that he or she could possibly not take a personal view of matters?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You know better than this. The Church has already given you proof of those saints; you guys just see it as ‘the work of satan’.

I have no basis to see it as “the work of God”. Scripture doesn’t tell me I have to either.

Of course, it is in the Bible that says ‘prayers of the saints’. It is you who says everything has to be in the Bible, and you had failed to show me where exactly in the Bible that it says St. John in Heaven.

** And that is talking about “dead” saints? Where does it say they pray for YOU? The whole Bible proves that John is in heaven. I should not have to explain it to you. If you understand anything at all about Christianity you would not have even had to say that. I didn’t fail to show you anything; you failed to grasp what you were told.**

Our prayers are heard through the answers to our prayers and through miracles. Tell me you never believe in the miracles.

The devil can do “miracles” too. Have you read Exodus? I believe in miracles, however never at the expense of the written revelation of God. How are your prayers heard through the answers to your prayers? I don’t understand that.

 

[water]

I have no basis to see it as “the work of God”. Scripture doesn’t tell me I have to either.
** **And that is talking about “dead” saints? Where does it say they pray for YOU? The whole Bible proves that John is in heaven. I should not have to explain it to you. If you understand anything at all about Christianity you would not have even had to say that. I didn’t fail to show you anything; you failed to grasp what you were told.****The devil can do “miracles” too. Have you read Exodus? I believe in miracles, however never at the expense of the written revelation of God. How are your prayers heard through the answers to your prayers? I don’t understand that.

**
you expect me to find my name in the Bible? you must be kidding me. If you have no problem with St. John being in Heaven, that’s good because that is what I believe.
So because satan can do miracles too, you deny those miracles of God, don’t you?**

 

[Michael_Francis]

Calm down or expect some penatlies to be issued.

You Catholics know better and I expect the very soul of charity from each of you and you know it.

ALL of you need to take everything that is said with a grain of salt and give the other guy the benefit of the doubt unless the post actually violates a Forum Rule or the Banned Topics Policy. If it does, then hit that BPR button http://70.85.23.3/images/buttons_cak/report.gif and let me deal with it.

Otherwise, all of you need to stop being so thin skinned and taking offense at everything the other guy says. Divergent opinions are just that and are no big deal. If you disagree, just refute the argument and let it go.

Anything beyond that is immature and non-constructive to the debate/discussion.

Charity in all things people.

 

[rciadan]

rciadan;1812077:

Hi, Im sure you are correct but I have had some catholics on this forum tell me otherwise.

They are referring to 1 Peter 3:21 “Its counterpart,Baptism, now saves you also (not putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience after God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” (1941 Confronternity Version)

Notice that this verse does not refer to being “saved” as in past tense. Understood properly, it is referring to the present tense, as in the now. This means that Baptism is the first step toward salvation; but only the first step in a lifetime process of “being saved” in the sense of "working out our salvation with fear and trembling. You must be baptised, but you must also ’ persevere to the end’.

If you are baptised, but do not persevere to the end, the crown of salvation will not be yours. Yes, there will, unfornately be baptised “believers” in hell. It surely would be a lot easier if I could just get baptised and then do whatever my flesh desires…

 

[MrS]

hoosierdaddy;1822320:

Catholics would agree that even an infant cannot be baptised “without faith.” Indeed: “for a clear conscience.” Baptism wipes away all sin, both original and actual.

Baptism also wipes away the temporal punishment of sin.

Thus the baptism of desire expressed by the good thief preceeded the words of the Lord…"…this day you shall be with me…"

One can be baptised as a result of their own faith or the faith of another…
example: I scripture the crippled man was lowered through the roof by his friends, whose faith in Jesus brought about the conversion of the cripple too.

example: Jesus instructed the adults to bring the children to Him… parents do that in Catholocism and some other faith communities.

 

[shawn34_a]

The Catholic Church has never taught that one is “saved” by baptism. the Church teaches, infallibly, that one “becomes a Christian” at baptism and from that time forward is a child of God, the Father.

To be saved, three things are required. You must accept Christ (gospel), repent of your sins, and be baptized. It is by the grace of God that one is saved. Grace cannot be earned, it is a free gift given to us by God as a result of Christ’s atonement on the cross. We all fall short of the glory of God. None of us truly deserve God’s grace. For if not for what we done, we can be just as guilty for what we have not done (good samaritan example).

There will be Christians in hell. Any baptised person (Christian) who rejects Christ: who refuses to obey Christ: who rejects his Church , will be a Christian who ends up in hell!

If this is the case, they never were Christians from the start. Point being is that they were never baptized, only washed with water

It is not up to the church to judge your salvation. Judge not less you be judge especially when you research the Catholic Church’s history and realize all the branches in its eyes. How ironic though some may teach this when ccc teaches that the Muslims are included in God’s plan of salvation for they share the same faith as Abraham. It definitely would be heresy on their behalf if they taught as you say.

 

[shawn34_a]

The part that I have highlighted in the above quote is the key, I think, to rciadan’s response (pardon me, rciadan, for throwing in my 2 cents). We all will be judged by our hearts by the Father that created us. Jesus called Him, “ABBA!!!,” 'daddy!"

Just a correction. We will not be judged by the father, but by the Son according to the Father’s will.

We will be judged by everything that we do, everything. We may be forgiven of our sins, but who ever said God forgets them. If anyone knows where it says God forgets them, let me know. From the period that we sleep in Christ until the 2nd coming, I believe we will be going through the sanctification process (purgatory). However we will not be with Christ until the 2nd coming. This is clearly documented.

 

[shawn34_a]

A Christian becomes a Christian through the Sacrament of Baptism, therefore Protestants are indeed Christians, according to the Council of Trent that declared that the Baptisms done by the Protestants are indeed valid.

Lets not forget repenting and acceptance of Christ (gospel). You are not forgiven unless all three are done.

Failure on your part for not knowing the gospel is not an excuse for Jesus said the gospel will be taught everywhere.

The only way back after commiting Mortal Sin is through the Sacrament of Confession unless however if you are sorry for the sin truly for the love of God, and not simply for the fear of going to hell and have no way of getting to or going to confession.

When you commit a sin period, you have to repent of it. Merely confessing your sin is not enough.

 

[shawn34_a]

Yes, Christ tells us this in Luke 10:16. The Apostles, and their successors, have the authority of Christ and we are to receive them and listen to them… *“The one who hears to you hears to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” *

Lets not forget it was Jesus who appointed Peter and the original apostles. Today the Pope is nominated by the cardinals, not appointed by God. They are not infallable.

Yes.

 

[shawn34_a]

The process of canonization simply identifies those whom the Church recognizes, through her teaching authority, to be definitively among those who have achieved (???) final blessedness. And the matter of the “deadness” of the Saints is not a rhetorical point at all, since the Saints now live in Christ, and as we read in the Gospels and in Revelation, our God is the God “of the living.”

Saints are those that were persecuted and died in Christ’s name. I’m Catholic, but disagree with the canonization process that the Church uses.

 

[shawn34_a]

You err because it is not my belief that I cannot know if I will go to heaven. It is your belief. So if you don’t know if you will go to heaven, how do you know if one single “Saint” went to heaven? Did you go up to heaven and see them there? Did you say hello for me?

I can believe that John is in heaven right now based on revelation from God through Scripture. Also, I believe that I can know I will go to heaven. What do you know, John himself said in the Bible that we can KNOW we have eternal life.

My prayers are heard by the Father, and the Son intercedes for me. You can’t show me a verse in Scripture that says the saints are praying for you personally.

I’ll answer the question. I know exactly where John and the rest of the saints are that died after Christ. They sleep in Christ until his 2nd Coming which occurs at the last (7th) trumpet or on the last day depending if you die before the 2nd coming. Read my post on the Protestant and Purgatory. I use various scripture to support it.
I’m amazed that some people in this forum can judge our fellow Protestants when they apparently don’t know the answer to this question. Apparently they’re not as versed in the scripture as I thought.

Many Catholics don’t think the Protestants will be saved, give me a break. How hypocritical when you consider the very teachings of the ccc state that the Muslims are included in God’s plan of Salvation for they share the same faith as Abraham. Well don’t the Protestants share the same faith as Abraham too? How about the Mormons? Need I go on with other denominations? Don’t bother answering it, it was a rhetorical question.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1ke:

Yes, Christ tells us this in Luke 10:16. The Apostles, and their successors, have the authority of Christ and we are to receive them and listen to them… “The one who hears to you hears to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

Lets not forget it was Jesus who appointed Peter and the original apostles. Today the Pope is nominated by the cardinals, not appointed by God. They are not infallable.

yes

Both of you misunderstand what infallible truly means. It’s actually spelled infallible not infallable.

Infallible means free from error from teaching moral and faith issues. Do not confuse infallibility with the word impeccable.

Impeccable- adj. 1. Having no flaws; perfect. See synonyms at perfect. 2. Incapable of sin or wrongdoing.

It is apparent that many Non-Catholics and even Catholics who do not understand the word infallible as defined by the Catholic Church.

Papal Infallibility: theology, papal infallibility is the dogma that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly promulgates, or declares, to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. The Holy Spirit also works though the body of the Church to ensure that all infallible teachings will be received by all Catholics.

The Pope and Bishops are not preserved from impeccable, especially the Pope.

Jesus did not promise his followers to be preserved from being impeccable.

He did promise, that the Spirit of Truth will guide them, the Holy Spirit. This gift was fulfilled on Pentecost Sunday (the birthday of the Church).

Jesus also promise that he will be with us until the end of time. To do that, he gave the apostles authority, and the apostles handed their what they learn from Jesus to their successors.

It is true that Jesus appointed Peter and the Apostles, but to reject them is to reject Jesus. “He who rejects you, rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me.”

You are wrong that God did not pick the Pope. “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20)

The cardinals who elect the Pope are spiritual servants of God’s people. They gather in God’s name. So God used the cardinals to elect a new Pope. Conclusion, God appointed the Popes who succeeded Peter.