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Hodos
Guest
Keep in mind that was a general answer to a broad question.
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lanman87
Guest
I’ve read all of that before. The opinions of folks who lived 360+ years after the birth of Christ are, well, opinions. Many of those opinions were shaped by the belief that sex was a necessary evil and that even married sex somehow soiled a person.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
I’m sure I can’t find a saint who was like “bah, Mary! Whatever!” but I bet someone smarter than me can find some who weren’t particularly focused on her. There are a LOT of saints. Im skeptical they were all as focused on Mary as, say, de Montfort.
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ltwin
Guest
Yes, this basically sums it up. There is so little explicit biblical teaching on this that most Protestants would not consider it an article of faith. At most, pious speculation.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Sounds like Arius on the divinity of Christ.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
Off the top of my head, St John of the Cross doesn’t allude to Mary all that often, and focuses more directly on Jesus. Which isn’t to say that he rejects Marian doctrines, obviously. Just that I get the sense that his spiritual practice wasn’t incredibly Marian focused.
(Not claiming to be an expert on him, so awaiting correction if I’m misrepresenting)
(Not claiming to be an expert on him, so awaiting correction if I’m misrepresenting)
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ltwin
Guest
Obviously, it’s completely different since Christ’s divinity is an article of faith among Protestants and we find much more explicit teaching on that than we do about Mary’s perpetual virginity.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
I may be a bit defensive on this because, while I intellectually accept the Marian doctrines, my spiritual life contains very little in the way of Marian devotion, and they tend to ring a bit hollow for me. And sometimes the way fellow Catholics talk about Mary makes me uncomfortable because it feels over the top. (Hard to be over the top when you’re talking about the woman who literally carried God in her womb, but some people manage.)
(Cue litany of quotes describing why I am a terrible human)
(Cue litany of quotes describing why I am a terrible human)
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Hodos
Guest
Yes, thanks for understanding.
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Hodos
Guest
The difference is that the Bible explicitly witnesses to the deity of Christ in many places. To attempt to make the argument that Arius did given his theological explanation, would be to make God the Father not eternal either, which is why the early fathers refuted him from scripture nearly unanimously.
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kainosktisis
Guest
I grew up Baptist, & I was always taught that she was just like the rest of us except that she bore the Savior. She was married, had kids, & was as fallible as everyone else.
Having attended Catholic schools in my youth though, I also accepted her as the Mother of God & clearly saw where this was Scriptural. I had no concept of the Dormition, Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, nor Coronation, nor any other Catholic teachings about her. I guess even attending Catholic schools, this was never taught to me. :S
Having attended Catholic schools in my youth though, I also accepted her as the Mother of God & clearly saw where this was Scriptural. I had no concept of the Dormition, Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, nor Coronation, nor any other Catholic teachings about her. I guess even attending Catholic schools, this was never taught to me. :S
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Dlee
Guest
This was my Baptist teaching, also.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Actually Itwin there is nothing explicitly found in scripture teaching the Trinity. Also there is no explicit scripture teaching what books are inspired. Yet both are articles of faith for all Christians. The Trinity is implied in scripture so is the perpetual virginity of Mary alone with the other great things God has done to Mary.
[Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.]
The Lord God has entered through Mary no one is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the old Testament Ark of the Covenant. Mary is Ark of the New Covenant. The following are parallel scriptures written by Luke. The scriptures are inspired so it isn’t likely it was only coincidence. The early Church fathers recognized the parallel.
[2 Sam6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims]
[LK 1:39 And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda]
[2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]
[LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her Fear not Mary for thou hast found favour with God]
[2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]
[LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?]
[2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart]
[LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears the babe leaped in my womb for joy]
[2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts]
[LK 1:45 And blessed is she that believed for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord]
[2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household]
[LK 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41-55 … 56 And Mary abode with her about three months and returned to her own house]
[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth ALL generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] Catholics, thru all generations have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to her.
[Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.]
The Lord God has entered through Mary no one is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the old Testament Ark of the Covenant. Mary is Ark of the New Covenant. The following are parallel scriptures written by Luke. The scriptures are inspired so it isn’t likely it was only coincidence. The early Church fathers recognized the parallel.
[2 Sam6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims]
[LK 1:39 And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda]
[2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]
[LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her Fear not Mary for thou hast found favour with God]
[2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]
[LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?]
[2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart]
[LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears the babe leaped in my womb for joy]
[2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts]
[LK 1:45 And blessed is she that believed for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord]
[2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household]
[LK 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41-55 … 56 And Mary abode with her about three months and returned to her own house]
[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth ALL generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] Catholics, thru all generations have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to her.
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Webo
Guest
Good protestants use the Bible to know what God says about any question.
Nowhere does the Bible elevate Mary in any way other than being obedient to the will of God. If God did intend to raise Mary to some sort of special position in heaven you’d think that God’s Son would have been in on that plan. In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus gently rebukes a woman who tried to bless her or elevate her as someone special.
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
Luke 11:28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
I wouldn’t spend anymore time worshipping Mary and start reading and obeying the word of God.
Some other supporting passages that show that elevating saints and popes as ones to be worshipped is wrong. And whether or not Catholics call it worship or veneration or anything else, accepting worship like the pope does is taking glory from God and giving it to yourself. See Acts 12:21-23
Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. 22 The people kept crying out, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Both Peter (supposedly the first pope) and Paul rejected the worship of men. See Acts 10:25-26 - Peter and Acts 14:11-15 - Paul (emphasis on v 14-15)
Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”
Act 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Please read your Bible. It’s not what you think or feel. It’s not what someone wrote or someone told you. If it doesn’t line up with the word of God it is false. Period. End of discussion.
Please repent and be saved. Faith in Christ alone is the only way to heaven. Jesus said Matthew 7:13-14 enter by the narrow gate which leads to life. Not the broad road which leads to destruction.
But don’t just take my word for it. Please read and study these passages plus the rest of the Bible. Your eternal destiny depends on it.
Nowhere does the Bible elevate Mary in any way other than being obedient to the will of God. If God did intend to raise Mary to some sort of special position in heaven you’d think that God’s Son would have been in on that plan. In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus gently rebukes a woman who tried to bless her or elevate her as someone special.
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
Luke 11:28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
I wouldn’t spend anymore time worshipping Mary and start reading and obeying the word of God.
Some other supporting passages that show that elevating saints and popes as ones to be worshipped is wrong. And whether or not Catholics call it worship or veneration or anything else, accepting worship like the pope does is taking glory from God and giving it to yourself. See Acts 12:21-23
Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. 22 The people kept crying out, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Both Peter (supposedly the first pope) and Paul rejected the worship of men. See Acts 10:25-26 - Peter and Acts 14:11-15 - Paul (emphasis on v 14-15)
Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”
Act 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Please read your Bible. It’s not what you think or feel. It’s not what someone wrote or someone told you. If it doesn’t line up with the word of God it is false. Period. End of discussion.
Please repent and be saved. Faith in Christ alone is the only way to heaven. Jesus said Matthew 7:13-14 enter by the narrow gate which leads to life. Not the broad road which leads to destruction.
But don’t just take my word for it. Please read and study these passages plus the rest of the Bible. Your eternal destiny depends on it.
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Hodos
Guest
Later typology not mentioned by the apostles, and certainly not the meaning the Judahites would have understood at the time Ezekiel was preaching to them.
Later typology not mentioned by any apostle you can name. Definitely not the intended meaning of the author of Samuel.
Not relevant to any of the dogmas stated here.
Not remotely related to any of the dogmas in its reading. Another later typology not mentioned by any apostle you can name.
Not supportive of any of the dogmas. Many people are said to have God’s favor though they sinned.
I don’t think there is any disagreement on Mary being the Mother of Christ.
Not sure how this is relevant.
Again, no disagreement on Mary being the Mother of Christ.
No one disputes that Mary was blessed. Not sure how that supports one of the dogmas in dispute.
As you can see, the vast majority of these references are stretches of the text to anachronistically read into the text dogmas that are not explicitly, or even implicitly referenced by any of the New Testament writers. While I find there are troubling things in the second order effects of some of the Marian dogmas (primarily I would argue they diminish the divinity of Christ), these would be matters of adiaphora, which is why we don’t hold them as de fide matters of doctrine deserving of the curse of anathema if they are questioned.
po18guy
Well-known member
Why have non-Catholic beliefs regarding Mary degraded so precipitously since the “reformation”? I have my theory. Neither the devil nor his demons can touch her. During exorcisms, they dare not even mention her name, although they freely insult the Lord Jesus, the priest and all who are present. Since they are blocked from even maligning her name, what to do?
They appeal to rebellious human egos and lead/incite them to degrade her for them. They dupe humans and use those dupes. Don’t think so? Have a read:
http://www.signandsight.com/features/530.html
From the interview:
They appeal to rebellious human egos and lead/incite them to degrade her for them. They dupe humans and use those dupes. Don’t think so? Have a read:
http://www.signandsight.com/features/530.html
From the interview:
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Mary was God’s most perfect creature because she bore the Christ.She was human but sinless.How could the Mother of God,the Christbearer be anything but pure and sinless?She was full of grace 
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kainosktisis
Guest
Yes, having come into the Church, I became aware of the differences in teaching, & I have a devotion to Our Blessed Mother. I was just pointing out the then & now. 
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