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Webo
Guest
I think Hodos explained that the word of God is his authority. He also offered a couple times to do a Bible study with some of you. Take him up on his offer.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Yes, this is novel to the early Reformers.
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Hodos
Guest
As is demonstrable, you were the one initiating the ad hominem attacks. The thread was asking what Protestants believe about Mary and why. I provided a response to the original post. You may disagree, which is fine, as I have already defined this as a matter of adiaphora. If you can’t contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way except to lob grenades and see what sticks, then kindly find a new forum thread.
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Augustinian
Guest
There is no universal Protestant teaching about Mary, as Protestantism really isn’t an “ism”. It describes a large varied group of folks with different attitudes and opinions.
Protestants generally just look at the stories about Mary in the Bible, and hold her up as a good example. As far as anything outside of the bible, apparitions,rosaries, they don’t go for it at all.
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AugustTherese
Guest
The Word of God is a Person Who sent a select few men and their successors to teach everything He commanded them by word and deed. If @Hodos is one of those successors in communion with Saint Peter, then he has authority. Claiming Scripture as your authority is analogous to Satan quoting Scripture to Our Lord.
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Hodos
Guest
Given how you completely just misused that scripture reference, you obviously haven’t studied that passage well. Satan’s issue wasn’t quoting scripture. It was misquoting it out of context. If you observe Jesus response it was to quote scripture to Satan putting it back into context. See the list of supposed prooftexts offered as another example of misuse.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Yes, exactly! That is exactly my point. If you quote Scripture out of context, your only ‘authority’ is using the ‘Word of God’ as a pretext; hence sola scriptura.AugustTherese:
Given how you completely just misused that scripture reference, you obviously haven’t studied that passage well. Satan’s issue wasn’t quoting scripture. It was misquoting it out of context. If you observe Jesus response it was to quote scripture to Satan putting it back into context. See the list of supposed prooftexts offered as another example of misuse.
Every heresy has originated from a misinterpretation of Scripture; every heretic claims Scripture as his authority attempting to usurp the authority of the Church. What do you think was Arius, Nestorius, and Martin Luther’s authority for their doctrines? Scripture!
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Webo
Guest
In Paul’s 2nd letter to Timothy he said:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
So, if I understand the catholic dogma, this truth was only for Tim and a few others around Paul’s time and now only the pope and people close to him can properly interpret scripture? Correct?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
So, if I understand the catholic dogma, this truth was only for Tim and a few others around Paul’s time and now only the pope and people close to him can properly interpret scripture? Correct?
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Hedy1
Guest
Martin Luther had a point. Our Catholic leaders were corrupt.
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Hedy1
Guest
As for Mary. Something happened at Medjegorje and I have been on Catholic forums where people told me I sensed nothing and it was a lie. They were not there.
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kainosktisis
Guest
Perhaps this article might help clarify the matter on the Blessed Virgin Mary & Scripture:
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.php
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.php
po18guy
Well-known member
1.2 Billion Catholics are waiting to hear where you got your authority.
So are 300 million Orthodox.
So are 300 million Orthodox.
- Since Christ commands us to listen to the Apostles (Luke 7:16) and…
- You are not an apostle and…
- Reject the Apostolic teachings that were handed on…
po18guy
Well-known member
But - and this is crucial! The reform was not to reform the hierarchy - it was to radically change Christianity into something that Christ never taught. It was driven by the mental instability of the primary reformer. Yet, even he, in his marginal sanity, revered Mary and did not degrade her memory.
From the arrogance and massive egos that are attracted to bible Christianity, you can judge the reformation by its fruits.
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Augustinian
Guest
“Bible Christianity” or fundamentalism, is predominately an American phenomenon. And America is known for massive egos.
I think if you compare European or Latin American Catholics to American fundamentalists on TV, the latter will be more egotistic based on their nationality.
po18guy
Well-known member
Even worse, it is the ego that interprets. That is patently obvious in the arrogance and condescension we observe here - the arrogance which purports to teach the very Church which gave them the bible they distort.
Apparently this passage from Holy Writ does not apply to them.
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Webo
Guest
Not sure what Luke 7:16 has to do Christ commanding us to listen to the apostles. That passage is about peoples reaction to Jesus raising a boy from the dead. Anywhooo……
Here are some of the apostles teaching on worshipping them or anyone other than God. But first a passage on accepting worship like the pope does which takes glory from God. See Acts 12:21-23. Then Peter and Paul both reject worship. And finally the apostle John writing in the book of Revelation.
Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. 22 The people kept crying out, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Both Peter (supposedly the first pope) and Paul rejected the worship of men. See Acts 10:25-26 - Peter and Acts 14:11-15 - Paul (emphasis on v 14-15)
Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”
Act 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
So to worship Mary is a sin.
Here are some of the apostles teaching on worshipping them or anyone other than God. But first a passage on accepting worship like the pope does which takes glory from God. See Acts 12:21-23. Then Peter and Paul both reject worship. And finally the apostle John writing in the book of Revelation.
Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. 22 The people kept crying out, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Both Peter (supposedly the first pope) and Paul rejected the worship of men. See Acts 10:25-26 - Peter and Acts 14:11-15 - Paul (emphasis on v 14-15)
Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”
Act 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
So to worship Mary is a sin.
po18guy
Well-known member
To be completely charitable: “Well DUH!”
Read the catechism before you burst through the door with both guns blazing. Kinda makes you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.
Your ball.
Hint: see sections 28, 347, 939, 1121, 1123, 1148, 1180, 1564, 1596, 2083, 2135
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ZMystiCat
Guest
To quote St. Vincent of Lerins:
Granted, today, literacy is common in Western countries, and Scripture is still beneficial for all Paul said it is. As such, Catholics continue to use it and encourage the now highly literate population to read it for themselves. The problem, though, comes when people proudly profess their own doctrine rather than humbly submit to the Church Jesus gave us decades before the first word of the New Testament was written, centuries before the canon was established, and over a millennium before literacy was taken for granted.
Besides, bear in mind that Timothy was himself a bishop, and the context of both letters from Paul is in how to lead his flock. Timothy needed to bear the Scripture in mind and build others, many of whom were illiterate, up using it. It would not have been taken as each individual needing to read for themselves and interpret for themselves. Many, if not most, were completely incapable of doing so.
Granted, today, literacy is common in Western countries, and Scripture is still beneficial for all Paul said it is. As such, Catholics continue to use it and encourage the now highly literate population to read it for themselves. The problem, though, comes when people proudly profess their own doctrine rather than humbly submit to the Church Jesus gave us decades before the first word of the New Testament was written, centuries before the canon was established, and over a millennium before literacy was taken for granted.
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