Protestant teaching of Mary

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po18guy said:
I am sorry if I have shocked, affronted or offended anyone, but it raises my hackles when buy-bull believers insult the Mother of God - our mother!

I will answer for all of my sin, but not for insulting the Mother of Christ!
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Haven’t seen a single instance of insulting the Blessed Mary. Disagreeing about the proper veneration and what is or is not authentic apostolic teaching about Mary is not an insult.
 
Good! when the nature of Catholic devotion to her is known, and the reasons why, any and all objections should melt away. They did in my case, but it took time and an open heart.
 
SeriousQuestion said:
Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. Ezekiel 44:1-2
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So God gave Ezekiel a vision starting in 43:1 where the Glory of the Lord entered the temple through the East gate (43:4) then in 44: 1-2 the Lord tells Ezekiel that no man shall be able to use that gate again because God entered using that Gate… means that Mary was always a virgin? Isn’t that a bit of a stretch to say that Mary is the East Gate?

It looks to me like if Mary being an ever virgin was so important that the Lord would have made sure it was obvious in Scripture. Instead we have passages like Matthew 13:55-56 where it is clear that the neighbors of Mary and Joseph describe the family of Mary and Joseph as Jesus and his brothers and sisters. If Jesus didn’t have brothers and sisters then why would the sovereign God of the Universe allow such language (that if anyone reads the text they will conclude that Jesus had brothers and sisters) be part of Sacred Scripture? Basically, the Catholic church is asking us to believe that Matthew 13:55-56 doesn’t mean what it says.
 
Except His entering into Mary wasn’t just some spiritual entering. It was physical. She received the fullness of Christ into herself. The closest comparison we have to that experience is the Eucharist and even then we need God to purify us, through baptism and reconciliation, lest we receive unworthily and desecrate Christ.

Granted, I understand Protestants don’t have the Eucharist and, as such, lose sight of that significance, but that’s another matter entirely.
 
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lanman87 said:
If Jesus didn’t have brothers and sisters then why would the sovereign God of the Universe allow such language (that if anyone reads the text they will conclude that Jesus had brothers and sisters) be part of Sacred Scripture?
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Have you ever called a fellow Christian a brother or sister?

Have you heard an African American refer to another African American as a brother or sister?

“Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.”
1 Corinthians 15:6

Did Mary give birth to more than 500 brothers and sisters?
 
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There is also the they were close relatives like Abraham and Lot, but I thought that was already discussed.
 
Webo said:
FYI the correct exegesis of Rev 12:1-6 finds that the woman represents Israel, not Mary. Unfortunately the RC folks on this forum are blinded to the truth.
Who’s exegesis, who do they say the child and dragon are?
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Webo said:
I’m sorry you’ve been lied to. I pray the Lord lifts the scales from your eyes so you can see the truth of the scriptures and be born again, before it’s too late.
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JL: Lied to by whom, can you name some of those lies?
Webo said:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” This is my last post.
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JL: Yes the scriptures are very clear on how one is born again by water and of the Spirit,

[Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.]

[Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]

Paul didn’t receive the Holy Spirit when he had his conversion experience and believed.
He wasn’t sanctified at that moment. He didn’t receive the Holy Spirit till three days later.

[Acts9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, And be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, And arose, and Was Baptized.]

Three days later Ananias laid hands on Paul and he received his sight. Immediately Paul received his sight. Then Paul arose to be baptized, to wash away and remit his sins, and receive the Holy Spirit. Three days after his conversion. Being Born Again by water And of the Spirit, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5. As Peter tells us in Acts2:38 repent, be baptized For remission of sins, Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the Washing of Water by the Word,]
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AugustTherese said:
Have you ever called a fellow Christian a brother or sister?

Have you heard an African American refer to another African American as a brother or sister?

“Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time , most of whom are still alive, though some have died.”
1 Corinthians 15:6

Did Mary give birth to more than 500 brothers and sisters?
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Yes, but that is not the context of Matthew 13. Those that were scoffing were talking about the immediate family(Dad, Mom, brothers and sisters) not spiritual brothers or cousins. If you hadn’t been taught that Jesus was Mary’s only child and you read this passage what would you think?

54 He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” 55 Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. 56 All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?” 57 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family.” 58 And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.
 
lanman87 said:
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AugustTherese:
Have you ever called a fellow Christian a brother or sister?

Have you heard an African American refer to another African American as a brother or sister?

“Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time , most of whom are still alive, though some have died.”
1 Corinthians 15:6

Did Mary give birth to more than 500 brothers and sisters?
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Yes, but that is not the context of Matthew 13. Those that were scoffing were talking about the immediate family(Dad, Mom, brothers and sisters) not spiritual brothers or cousins. If you hadn’t been taught that Jesus was Mary’s only child and you read this passage what would you think?

54 He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” 55 Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. 56 All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?” 57 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family.” 58 And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.
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“So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers” (Gen 13:81)

Abram is Lot’s uncle. Why does he say they are ‘brothers’?
 
AugustTherese said:
Abram is Lot’s uncle. Why does he say they are ‘brothers’?
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The versions I read (ESV, NIV, NLT) say close relatives or kinsmen in Gen 13:8. Once again, the context of Matthew 13:54-58 is that others are scoffing at Jesus and using His immediate family to justify why they thought there was nothing special about Jesus. This isn’t Jesus addressing one of His followers as a “Brother” and it isn’t Paul addressing believers as 'Brothers and Sisters". This is non believers basically saying “What makes him think he is so special. We know his parents and his siblings. He is just a normal guy and not really that special”. Of course, they were wrong about Him being special but it is clear they believed He had brothers and sisters.
 
ZMystiCat said:
Except His entering into Mary wasn’t just some spiritual entering. It was physical. She received the fullness of Christ into herself.
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Not sure anything is more “fuller” than the other. I mean the incarnation was where God, a Spirit, entered or became man. It is thought that His glory was veiled in man, that His body had not yet been glorified. What Mary carried in her womb was still flesh though inhabited by God.

Again His flesh was like yours or mine, not glorified, at the conception, so don’t see how it is greater than having the fullness of His Spirit inhabiting her or us.

A devout Jewish maiden was not “unclean”…for sure she was holy in God’s sight, set apart with the incarnation purpose, justified and sanctified by the gift of faith and obedience…I would consider that the greater glory and miracle, the perfection, the immaculateness that God makes graciously. I think to go beyond that by declaring a different perfection and immaculateness, or declaring a sinless life, or ever virgin detracts from said grace in this dispensational time. It detracts from the “fittingness” of God becoming man to come and touch and be touched by fallen man in a fallen world, to even take on or become it’s sin in fleshly atoning death.
 
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ZMystiCat said:
Granted, I understand Protestants don’t have the Eucharist and, as such, lose sight of that significance, but that’s another matter entirely.
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Well, we are “catholic” but not “Catholic”, and we “eucharist” but not “Eucharist”. I would think we take the two terms in their simplest and original meaning.
 
How can anyone possibly know that?

Seriously think about it. How do any of us know what God wants? We don’t. Anyone who claims they do are lying to themselves.
 
mcq72 said:
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ZMystiCat:
Granted, I understand Protestants don’t have the Eucharist and, as such, lose sight of that significance, but that’s another matter entirely.
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Well, we are “catholic” but not “Catholic”, and we “eucharist” but not “Eucharist”. I would think we take the two terms in their simplest and original meaning.
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And we derive our beliefs from God’s Word, the Holy Bible not a bible or buy-bull.
 
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