Protestant tunnelvision

[Righteousone]

Righteousone,
Agreed (if you mean inadvertantly misled)! Talk about tunnelvision - If I am not willing to learn about your faith, what does that say about the security of my own? And if I come to the conclusion that Luther was mistaken (I don’t think he lied), then I must become a Catholic (“Lord, to whom shall I go?”). Thanks for the welcome. I’m glad to be here.

Blessings

Jon, I know it’s hard to accept things in our faith, if I wasn’t so passionate about my own, because I’ve studied it for 3 years, and I’ve really come to a conclusion that Jesus really did start the Cathiolic church. Luther was actually a Catholic because that’s all that were around in those days. Figure it out. Luther decided to leave the Catholic church and start his own religion, but the Catholic church still stands as one. We are the only religion with an unbroken link of 2,000 years. No one else can claim this.

 

[HannahLisa]

From what I know of Luther, he started out just pointing out issues in the Church - issues which no one can deny were definitely problems. I think it was after the Church excommunicated him for daring to point out problems that he decided to start changing doctrines.

 

[Righteousone]

From what I know of Luther, he started out just pointing out issues in the Church - issues which no one can deny were definitely problems. I think it was after the Church excommunicated him for daring to point out problems that he decided to start changing doctrines.

Ok, so that justifies him? How dare he decide on his own to change doctrine.l

 

[Jeanette_L]

From what I know of Luther, he started out just pointing out issues in the Church - issues which no one can deny were definitely problems. I think it was after the Church excommunicated him for daring to point out problems that he decided to start changing doctrines.

I’ve been reading a fantastic book called “The Great Heresies” by Hillaire Belloc and he has a great section on the reformation, well worth the read.

He doesn’t sugar coat the appalling state of the Church at that time and the need for sweeping reform, but the reform needed was in practice, hierarchical and financial abuse, not in doctrine. But the ensuing revolt took on a life of it’s own and as these things always do, went way beyond what was needed and caused the destruction of the unified Christian world.

 

[HannahLisa]

No, it doesn’t justify him. But the Catholic Church is not perfect, any more than any other human institution is.

 

[Righteousone]

No, it doesn’t justify him. But the Catholic Church is not perfect, any more than any other human institution is.

No, it is not perfect, but only human and human mistakes were made. But in the end, the church prevailed and it isn’t the cleverness of the priests and bishops, but the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, I know it’s hard to accept things in our faith, if I wasn’t so passionate about my own, because I’ve studied it for 3 years, and I’ve really come to a conclusion that Jesus really did start the Cathiolic church. Luther was actually a Catholic because that’s all that were around in those days. Figure it out. Luther decided to leave the Catholic church and start his own religion, but the Catholic church still stands as one. We are the only religion with an unbroken link of 2,000 years. No one else can claim this.

Oh, I know these things, as well. Even Luther pointed out the fact that everything we know, prior to 1517, is because of the Catholic Church. Luther tried, I think rightly, to point out some serious problems in the Church of his time. IT is the doctrines he questioned after he was excommunicated from the Church that I am grappling with. You are right; in my 50’s, son of a Lutheran minister, this is a hard struggle for me. Be patient if I have tunnelvision.

Jon

 

[Righteousone]

Jon, Luther had no right to question doctrine. No one is allowed to change that.
What surprises Catholics is the audacity of the man who could coolly change by a stroke of a pen a fundamental doctrine of the Apostle of God, St. Paul, who wrote, as all admitted, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
No pope, no Council, no Church shall enlighten you or dictate or hand down the doctrines of Christ.
AND THE RESULT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WORD.

 

[Kay_Cee]

May I make a suggestion to everyone here?

A *falsehood *is something told that is incorrect.

A *lie *is the deliberate telling of something one knows is a falsehood.

Perhaps the use of these terms will help clear up any confusion.

But the Catholic Church is not perfect, any more than any other human institution is.

But the Church is not a “human institution.” It is a divine one, built by Christ ("Thou art Peter and upon this rock *I will build my Church.) *Christ even identifies Himself with it ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?) The Bible even calls it the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:24)

Of course it has imperfect, sinful humans in it, yet it is perfect nonetheless, since Christ is its head.

 

[HannahLisa]

Jon, Luther had no right to question doctrine. No one is allowed to change that.
What surprises Catholics is the audacity of the man who could coolly change by a stroke of a pen a fundamental doctrine of the Apostle of God, St. Paul, who wrote, as all admitted, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
No pope, no Council, no Church shall enlighten you or dictate or hand down the doctrines of Christ.
AND THE RESULT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WORD.

Why is no one allowed to question doctrine? Also, in what authoritative Church teaching or Scripture verse does it say this?

Which fundamental doctrine did Luther change?

How has God’s Holy Word been corrupted?

 

[HannahLisa]

But the Church is not a “human institution.” It is a divine one, built by Christ ("Thou art Peter and upon this rock *I will build my Church.) *Christ even identifies Himself with it ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?) The Bible even calls it the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:24)

Of course it has imperfect, sinful humans in it, yet it is perfect nonetheless, since Christ is its head.

The Church was not created by humans, perhaps. But when I look at the Church during the Renaissance, or during Martin Luther’s time, I see very little that is “perfect.”

 

[JonNC]

Why is no one allowed to question doctrine? Also, in what authoritative Church teaching or Scripture verse does it say this?

Which fundamental doctrine did Luther change?

How has God’s Holy Word been corrupted?

I can answer some of this:
Authority of the Church, in the Catholic view - “upon this rock I will build my Church”.

Fundamental Doctrines:
Transubstantiation, intercession of Saints, the doctrine of justification, the primacy of the Pope, the number of Sacraments, and others.

 

[Righteousone]

Luther changed St. Paul’s verse:“We are saved by faith” to “We are saved by faith ONLY”. He added words to the Holy Scriptures.

 

[HannahLisa]

Luther changed St. Paul’s verse:“We are saved by faith” to “We are saved by faith ONLY”. He added words to the Holy Scriptures.

What Bible verse is this? I tried to find the specific verse, but I don’t think I found the right one. I have never heard that Luther added anything, only that he wanted to take out some NT books including James (which specifically states that man is NOT saved by faith alone), and that he took out the Apocrypha.

JonNC – When you mentioned authority of the church, was that in response to my question about why church doctrines are not allowed to be questioned? I thought it might be but I wasn’t sure. And if so, how does that forbid questioning doctrine?

 

[johnnydigit]

Webster’s Dictionary: Prejudice = to pre judge

Many Protestants do not know a thing about the Catholic Church only what they heard from others that have no authority on the subject.

This must be because they believe no one has authority, that is why there are tens of thousands of denominations now.

If only they knew the truth about the Catholic Church they would surely question and stop the protest.

What is sad for most Protestants is that their pastor is to blame for telling lies to them. They don’t realize that there were NO Protestants around during and after the time of Jesus. They don’t realize that Luther and other Reformers were Catholic, and since they didn’t like something, they started their own churches. Protestants don’t want to know about history, it would shock them to find out the truth. I just thank God he planted me in the right direction.

yes, it’s simply ignorance of Truth, and a lot to do with personal emotions… but i lament, because i know many have good intentions and truly have a love for our Lord Jesus Christ. they simply don’t know any better. we must treat them gently like our brothers and sisters because they are indeed our brothers and sisters. it (patience and kindness) helps a whole lot with apologetics too.

i learned that no amount of logic, especially from history, will get through to most protestants. often there are emotional and prideful reasons that simply will not let them accept any sort of reasoning. i have been successful using parables that can relate to the individual person, and show through example how Christian a Catholic can be.

 

[rpp]

From what I know of Luther, he started out just pointing out issues in the Church - issues which no one can deny were definitely problems. I think it was after the Church excommunicated him for daring to point out problems that he decided to start changing doctrines.

Umm…, not to derail the thread here, but Luther was not excommunicated because he pointed out problems in the Church. Nor, in fact, did he start out by merely pointing out problems. Luther started out with posting his famous 95 theses, which in and of themselves, were heretical and denied certain Catholic doctrine and denied certain sacraments, like Confession (Thesis number 2.).

It was four years later that he was excommunicated (1521); seven months after Luther was warned he may be excommunicated and one month after Luther claimed to have excommunicated the Pope! These events were set in motion because Luther repeatedly refused to discuss his theses with bishops and the Pope himself.

But it must not be forgotten that at the time of the Reformation, there was certainly corruption in the Church. Luther was not the only rebel. The problem was Luther (and the others) challenged not just the corruption, but the doctrines too.

But this is getting a bit off topic.

 

[Jeanette_L]

yes, it’s simply ignorance of Truth, and a lot to do with personal emotions… but i lament, because i know many have good intentions and truly have a love for our Lord Jesus Christ. they simply don’t know any better. we must treat them gently like our brothers and sisters because they are indeed our brothers and sisters. it (patience and kindness) helps a whole lot with apologetics too.

i learned that no amount of logic, especially from history, will get through to most protestants. often there are emotional and prideful reasons that simply will not let them accept any sort of reasoning. i have been successful using parables that can relate to the individual person, and show through example how Christian a Catholic can be.

When I first converted, I thought I could use research, solid historical evidence and reason to discuss the my change of heart and mind, and decision to become Catholic. I soon found out that these were not options. What had always been open ended communication in discussing all manner of docrinal thoughts and challenges now become a closed door.

I believe in my heart at this time that the only way I will ever reach my family is through the way I live out my faith during times of hardship and suffering, because that is the only way they will see a faith that doesn’t crumble but endures and grows richer and stronger. It is through a faith well lived that the Truth will shine.

 

[rpp]

What Bible verse is this? I tried to find the specific verse, but I don’t think I found the right one. I have never heard that Luther added anything, only that he wanted to take out some NT books including James (which specifically states that man is NOT saved by faith alone), and that he took out the Apocrypha.

JonNC – When you mentioned authority of the church, was that in response to my question about why church doctrines are not allowed to be questioned? I thought it might be but I wasn’t sure. And if so, how does that forbid questioning doctrine?

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=209198

 

[Kay_Cee]

The Church was not created by humans, perhaps. But when I look at the Church during the Renaissance, or during Martin Luther’s time, I see very little that is “perfect.”

“Now, I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.”

The Bible tells us the Church is Christ’s body. Surely you are not denying Christ is perfect.

Do the members of Christ’s church sin? Yes, they do. But they are brought to perfection in Christ.

Please explain how Christ’s body is a “human institution.”

 

[HannahLisa]

I understand the concept of Christ’s body being perfect, and that his body is the Church. I do, however, have trouble reconciling this with what I know of Renaissance popes especially, as well as other corrupt popes. Also, I do not see how they were brought to perfection in Christ. I haven’t studied this period exhaustively, but I know that popes in the past were appointed for political reasons, had illegitimate children, and were in general a lot more worried about themselves than the Church.

I think the Catholic Church is a human institution inasmuch as it is filled with fallible human beings. Also, I don’t see where Jesus specified all the doctrines, hierarchies, etc. of the Church. I’m not saying they are not valid. I’m just saying that, to me, at this point, the Catholic Church seems to be very much a human institution. A human institution started by God and helped by God, perhaps, but still human.