Protestant tunnelvision

  • Thread starter Thread starter Claudius
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hannah,
Lets try it this way,

Jesus began His ministry and church with the original 12 Apostles–Agreed ?

The 12 Apostles were hand picked and taught by Jessus

One of the 12, Judas Iscariot did betray Him with a kiss–Agreed?

One was without faith Thomas ?

One denied Him 3 times?

Others ran and hid when He was being tried and crucified.

Do you agree that what Jesus taught was Sacred?, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write Sacred writtings the Gospel., The traditions Jesus taught were Sacred. Well these things make up His Church.

Were the Apostles actions infallable at all times? absolutely not agreed?

However did it change His teachings, the Bible, or Traditions he told the Apostles to share and expand his church? absolutely not. This is infallable, this is His Church.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, He was the rock or cornerstone that continued His earthly Church and the 11 Apostles and later 12 again after Mathias and then their sucessors were the successors that continued His Church. The Catholic Church

What is taught by these successors is infallable their actions are not. They are man and man is a sinful or disobedient creature.
 
c659smith, thank you for your reply. That did clarify that for me! 🙂
 
Hannah,
I do not know if anyone really answered your thread on Martin Luther adding to the Bible well here is one

Romans 3:28 is a key verse in the differences between traditional Protestants and Catholics. You will notice that Paul says a man is justified by faith (pistei in Greek). When Martin Luther translated the letter to the Romans into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone —but alone is not in the original Greek text. The phrase “faith alone” does occur in the New Testament: one time, in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Let me quote it: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
 
c659smith said:
Hannah,
Lets try it this way,

Jesus began His ministry and church with the original 12 Apostles–Agreed ?

The 12 Apostles were hand picked and taught by Jessus

One of the 12, Judas Iscariot did betray Him with a kiss–Agreed?

One was without faith Thomas ?

One denied Him 3 times?

Others ran and hid when He was being tried and crucified.

Do you agree that what Jesus taught was Sacred?, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write Sacred writtings the Gospel., The traditions Jesus taught were Sacred. Well these things make up His Church.

Were the Apostles actions infallable at all times? absolutely not agreed?

However did it change His teachings, the Bible, or Traditions he told the Apostles to share and expand his church? absolutely not. This is infallable, this is His Church.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, He was the rock or cornerstone that continued His earthly Church and the 11 Apostles and later 12 again after Mathias and then their sucessors were the successors that continued His Church. The Catholic Church

What is taught by these successors is infallable their actions are not. They are man and man is a sinful or disobedient creature.
Click to expand...
ya thanks i’m going to just copy and paste that from now on if you don’t mind. i’m sick of explaining it over, and over, and over, and over again. it’s just so simple and logical. it’s nerve wrecking people don’t get it… or maybe, just maybe, is it me? nah. 😛
 
Now understood and throughout other readings that works alone also does not get one into heaven but Faith will inspire works that Jesus taught even ones greater than He has Shown. Faith alone is dead and works not inspired by faith is empty.
 
c659smith said:
Hannah,
Lets try it this way,

Jesus began His ministry and church with the original 12 Apostles–Agreed ?

The 12 Apostles were hand picked and taught by Jessus

One of the 12, Judas Iscariot did betray Him with a kiss–Agreed?

One was without faith Thomas ?

One denied Him 3 times?

Others ran and hid when He was being tried and crucified.

Do you agree that what Jesus taught was Sacred?, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write Sacred writtings the Gospel., The traditions Jesus taught were Sacred. Well these things make up His Church.

Were the Apostles actions infallable at all times? absolutely not agreed?

However did it change His teachings, the Bible, or Traditions he told the Apostles to share and expand his church? absolutely not. This is infallable, this is His Church.

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, He was the rock or cornerstone that continued His earthly Church and the 11 Apostles and later 12 again after Mathias and then their sucessors were the successors that continued His Church. The Catholic Church

What is taught by these successors is infallable their actions are not. They are man and man is a sinful or disobedient creature.
Click to expand...
:doh2: So simple, but it still will be argued into the ground. 😊 🤷
 
Jeanette L, I’m sure it is simple. For me, I didn’t truly understand it until c659smith posted that. That made it make sense to me. Sometimes it just needs to be explained a certain way for some to get it. Sometimes people put up a wall (not always consciously) and refuse to understand. That is unfortunate when it happens.

c659smith, is there any Bible translation that you know of that still follows Martin Luther’s inaccurate translation? I don’t think there is, but I’m not positive.

I definitely do not think works can get you into heaven. I don’t think faith alone gets you into heaven, either, because if you have faith but don’t live it, it is meaningless. In my experience, this is a tricky place for Protestants, because you have to phrase it just right so people know you don’t mean works get you into heaven. I believe it is following Christ which gets you into heaven – and that will be shown by “works.”
 
The problem with protestants is they have been told having faith in Jesus that he died for your sins and that all you have to do is have faith and follow him and the bible and you will be saved. Then the Catholic Church says only people who believe in the Church are saved… So a protestant will pull out passages out of the bible and show that we are not saved by the church but by Christ. Which is true but when the Catholic Church says believe in the Church it means believe in everything the Church holds as true that has been passed down through the ages by apostolic succession.

We are not to have faith in the man who sits on his throne for salvation but we are to listen to him because he is our spiritual leader apointed by God through apostolic succession. The church can not simplify salvation by just having Faith in the death and ressurection of Christ and his forgivness of our sins, That is because Faith is the first part of salvation. We have to live our faith in hope and with charity. The acts of hope and charity working through faith is what brings the gift of salvation to us all. You can not have Salvation if you neglect one of these area’s. The church has methods used over the ages to increase and allow us to work with Christ in us as sinners to ensure that we are always stay on the path to salvation.

As Catholics it is not our duty to convert the masses by showing them their short commings it is our duty to show them our faith and the hope that is in us and the charity that works through us.
 
c659smith said:
Genesis315

The faith alone docrine is not in the bible but true faith brings works are. I have shown that numerous times on this forum and hoping that it will take root.

However when they, the ones that believe in faith alone are put in a corner with scripture they dissappear from the thread.
Click to expand...
I’ve never disappeared from our discussions, Mr. Smith. You’ve gotten silent on me and told me you don’t care what I say. :tiphat:
 
c659smith said:
Now understood and throughout other readings that works alone also does not get one into heaven but Faith will inspire works that Jesus taught even ones greater than He has Shown. Faith alone is dead and works not inspired by faith is empty.
Click to expand...
I told you what “greater works” means, Mr. Smith. He didn’t say those “greater works” would save them, now did He? I also demonstrated to you that neither works of the “Law of Moses” or the “Law of Christ” can save anyone, but:1 Cor 1:21b “God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe”👍
 
I was going to reply to Hannah, but I see c659smith has beaten me to it.

Bravo! Well done! :clapping:
 
Jeanette_L said:
Many do tend to go to their own higher educational facilities. And to be quite honest, we see what goes on in our secular universities, if your kids even end up with their minds off their social life and onward to their education, most of those places are not friendly to any Christian faith, it comes under constant attack in some quarters. I don’t blame Christians of any faith to want a safer environment for their kids. It’s a terrible shame to have to make those kinds of choices. 🤷
Click to expand...
The part about not being Christian-friendly is correct, but to me there is another issue. When I started college, I would have gone to the small, private Catholic school in Alabama. The problem was that with my chosen major, I would have been at a HUGE disadvantage in the workforce. That is not an uncommon problem. In some degree fields, the larger school are better.

Back to the origional post. The tunnel-vision problem is on both sides. There are Catholics who do not know the faith that well and will not learn it either. When they get presented with a challenge, they either leave the Church or get too defensive and argue the point. It is the same way with some Protestants.
 
HannahLisa said:
Jeanette L, I’m sure it is simple. For me, I didn’t truly understand it until c659smith posted that. That made it make sense to me. Sometimes it just needs to be explained a certain way for some to get it. Sometimes people put up a wall (not always consciously) and refuse to understand. That is unfortunate when it happens.
Click to expand...
😊 I wasn’t thinking of you when I replied like that, I apologize if it appeared that way. I am dealing with people in my life that just refuse to have an honest discussion, I get excited when someone makes a point and does it simply, it gives me hope and courage. 😉

I am a new Catholic and I have been there - where I didn’t have any understanding of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. It took a lot of research, study, prayer and long months filled with tears to get me here. I didn’t want to be brought here to be perfectly honest, there was a high price tag attached, but well worth it, I wouldn’t have it any other way now.

I just know that we can present our case in a way that makes all the sense in the world, and if someone is determined not to at least hear us, then that is when everything gets argued into the ground. It is very frustrating and God Bless those who persevere!

Anyway, I’m glad that you were able to understand and receive what he was trying to communicate. 🙂
 
Jeanette_L said:
😊 I wasn’t thinking of you when I replied like that, I apologize if it appeared that way. I am dealing with people in my life that just refuse to have an honest discussion, I get excited when someone makes a point and does it simply, it gives me hope and courage. 😉
Click to expand...
I didn’t mean that to seem like I thought you were talking about me! Quite honestly, I didn’t think you were, and I’m sorry I gave that impression!

Thank you for sharing a little bit of your experience. Hearing about others who had no understanding coming to understanding gives me hope that I will be able to understand as well. Regardless of whether I become Catholic at some point or not, I want to understand Catholicism to the best of my ability!
 
HannahLisa said:
I didn’t mean that to seem like I thought you were talking about me! Quite honestly, I didn’t think you were, and I’m sorry I gave that impression!

Thank you for sharing a little bit of your experience. Hearing about others who had no understanding coming to understanding gives me hope that I will be able to understand as well. Regardless of whether I become Catholic at some point or not, I want to understand Catholicism to the best of my ability!
Click to expand...
🙂 :hug1:
 
Moondweller,

I really do not know what I must give you that faith alone without works is empty. I have given you the bible Parable of the rich man that had faith but was unable to get into heaven and walked away from Christ when Jesus said you must give up all your wealth and follow me. He could not as his love of money was equal to or greater than his love for Chist or his fellow man.

I have directly pulled out a passage whereby Christ Himself states that those that believe in me will do the works I did and even ones greater than those.

I asked you over and over again where the words Faith Alone are in the Bible together and you have yet to show me.

If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved? If so, then we are not saved by faith alone, are we? We are saved by faith and love—which Catholics refer to as faith working through love (cf. Gal. 5:6). If a person says we do not need love in order to be saved, then he is saying we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man—a patently ridiculous position to take. Also, if faith alone saves us, faith without love, why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and it is by faith alone that we achieve salvation, then faith should be greater than love. But the Bible says differently.

Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If yes, then we are not saved by faith alone. After all, we cannot be saved if we do not have our sins forgiven, and we cannot have our sins forgiven if we do not forgive others. Therefore, we are saved by faith and at least one work: the work of forgiving others of their sins against us. If a person’s answer is no, that we do not have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven, then he is going directly against what Jesus says in Matthew 6:14.

in verse 24 James concludes again, “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

When you read Paul in the Gospel as a whole you see Paul is speaking of the old laws such as circumsion, eating pork, etc… to the gentiles as for several years Christians were another sect of the Jewish Faith and had yet to be called Christians. These are the works or laws Paul is referring to not the works that Jesus told the Apostles to do and teach others to do.

To believe otherwise is to confuse yourself and contradict Jesus’s teachings.

To have faith in Jesus is to obey his greatest commandment which is to love one another and by doing this with full faith as Jesus as our Redeemer one will automatically do works as that is how we show we are Christians.

Only one thief on the cross was saved the one that had faith and asked for forgiveness

Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16-17).

“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).
 
Im a protestant and I just wish we could all get along and become one body of Christ and not argue over whos wrong and whos right, We are all right because we believe in Jesus Christ!
 
DrewC said:
Im a protestant and I just wish we could all get along and become one body of Christ and not argue over whos wrong and whos right, We are all right because we believe in Jesus Christ!
Click to expand...
We would of all got along, if not for Luther and King Henry and all the other heretics. We are not all right because lots interpret the Bible incorrectly, therefore resulting in 30,000 denominations. You cannot simply go and start your own sect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top