Protestant View of Mariology

[aidanbradypop]

I am Continuing Anglican

Ok cool. I have both in my family so was just wondering. I have a few Episcopalians as well. They do not pay much attention to the Virgin Mother

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary is God’s creation, and at her conception, in her free will as she was conceived full of grace, her whole entire being a response, an assent to the Holy Trinity, the Fiat – ‘Yes’ to God, her free choice and likewise recognizing the need for savior and messiah to the world.

Mary chose God and His will, which included Christ coming to the world to restore humanity to God, at her conception. Again, although created full of grace, she still had free will. Her initial existence, her conception was affirmation of God.

This is the theological answer given us in class by the priest chosen by Cardinal Levada, then archbishop, who later headed the Doctrine of Faith at the Vatican.

 

[TristanH]

First post, may as well dive right in, eh?

As with many things I think much confusion comes from the terminology used. For many of my friends, the term Co-Redeemer conjures an image of Mary as being an equal partner in the Redemption that they feel belongs solely to the Christ.

Stating that Mary played a part by choosing to give birth to Him isn’t really arguable (to me at least), it’s the way the title is worded that leads to the belief is that you diminish the role of the Christ in having Him share.

This is the same with Mediatrix. You will get the passage stated “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”. For many, if there is one mediator, then how is Mary Mediatrix? You’re adding an unnecessary step.

Regarding Mary’s perpetual virginity, I think sometimes people want differences just to have differences. While I personally believe she was, my wife believes she wasn’t. I don’t consider the issue salvational.

The Immaculate Conception is one that many of my friends don’t even really know about. They just assume it refers to Jesus. What I struggle with is the necessity. It is clearly in God’s power to allow Jesus to be sinless regardless of the state of Mary. If Mary needed to be sinless (in which case, what need has she of a savior?) in order for the Christ not to have sin, wouldn’t her mother be required to be sinless, and so on? If God could cleanse her upon conception to free her, could He simply not have done the same for the Christ?

Personally, I consider her Blessed, and am thankful that she freely chose to give birth to our Savior.

Anyways, I’ve enjoyed reading the forums so far, thanks for having them!

 

[aidanbradypop]

First post, may as well dive right in, eh?

As with many things I think much confusion comes from the terminology used. For many of my friends, the term Co-Redeemer conjures an image of Mary as being an equal partner in the Redemption that they feel belongs solely to the Christ.

Stating that Mary played a part by choosing to give birth to Him isn’t really arguable (to me at least), it’s the way the title is worded that leads to the belief is that you diminish the role of the Christ in having Him share.

This is the same with Mediatrix. You will get the passage stated “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”. For many, if there is one mediator, then how is Mary Mediatrix? You’re adding an unnecessary step.

Regarding Mary’s perpetual virginity, I think sometimes people want differences just to have differences. While I personally believe she was, my wife believes she wasn’t. I don’t consider the issue salvational.

The Immaculate Conception is one that many of my friends don’t even really know about. They just assume it refers to Jesus. What I struggle with is the necessity. It is clearly in God’s power to allow Jesus to be sinless regardless of the state of Mary. If Mary needed to be sinless (in which case, what need has she of a savior?) in order for the Christ not to have sin, wouldn’t her mother be required to be sinless, and so on? If God could cleanse her upon conception to free her, could He simply not have done the same for the Christ?

Personally, I consider her Blessed, and am thankful that she freely chose to give birth to our Savior.

Anyways, I’ve enjoyed reading the forums so far, thanks for having them!

I agree that the wording can cause confusion for some. When it is even explained, some will still believe otherwise.

 

[SteveVH]

If Mary needed to be sinless (in which case, what need has she of a savior?)

First, welcome to CAF.

Mary was born sinless precisely because of the saving act of her Son. Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection is an eternal event, not subject to time and space. Instead of being save by being pulled out of the quicksand, she was saved from ever falling into it, but she was saved by her Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[aidanbradypop]

First, welcome to CAF.

Mary was born sinless precisely because of the saving act of her Son. Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection is an eternal event, not subject to time and space. Instead of being save by being pulled out of the quicksand, she was saved from ever falling into it, but she was saved by her Son, Jesus Christ.

If I may so kindly add to what you stated:

Mary’s sinlessness was not due to any inherent perfection she had apart from God; her very sinlessness was for the sake of her Savior, Christ. His death and resurrection was for all the sins past and present. As a human being who descended from Adam and Eve, Mary was due to inherit original sin. If God had done nothing at the point of her conception, she would have inherited it. She was to be the mother of Christ or the Mother of God, and was to have a share in salvation for the human race. God used the graces Christ would win for humanity on the cross and saved her from all stain of sin from the moment of her conception. Her sinlessness does not diminish God’s saving power; if anything, his work to preserve Mary’s soul free from any and all sin demonstrates the limitlessness of his saving power.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I think it is a predictable result of a male dominated belief system that continues to keep women subservient. Some people need to see something feminine honored and revered for the sake of balance. The idea that gender has anything to do with the ability to learn, love or lead in almost any setting: politics, religion, business is a silly, antiquated notion. There is nothing inherently good or bad about one’s gender. I don’t know why the Catholic Church continues to limit the role of women, but as long as their members abide by this decision, there is not likely to be any change. Quite frankly, the entire hierarchy in the Church seems unnecessary - there is nothing in the New Testament about nuns, friars, Christian priests, Monsignors, Bishops or Popes.

In the first few centuries following Christ, there were only gatherings of like-minded people talking about what they knew about Jesus. The politics didn’t come into play until the Church established a seat of power. I have seen numerous threads and posts by Catholics that don’t understand ‘Protestant’ churches lack of hierarchy. Some have them, others don’t. The ones that don’t do just fine. The minister isn’t in power - the congregation is - or usually a board of people who oversee how the church functions: budget committees, community outreach, etc. Many of these organizations are more focused on how they carry out the message of Christ, rather than scripture interpretation, or who is allowed to do what. They know that if some people disagree with their interpretation, beliefs and practices - those people are free to find a church with which they can agree. This is not to say they have no controversy or power struggles, it’s just usually much smaller in scale. Just because they aren’t Catholic, doesn’t mean they aren’t good Christians. Some churches - like Mormons (for example) put focus in supporting missionary work in developing countries. Some of them establish nursing homes, hospices, orphanages, medical outreach. Universalists have a wonderful tradition of reaching out to jails and prisons, donating books and resources to educate prisoners.

I do find it interesting that churches that do not limit the roles of it’s members based on gender, do not venerate Mary - or any particular saint. It’s not that Mary is disparaged in any way - it’s just not seen as an issue.

 

[Publisher]

She is the best human representative of obeying God. “Whaterver he says to do…do it.”

She was not immaculantly conceived…she was a sinner saved by grace…and she said “Yes” to God when He called her to bear His Son.

But it is Christ alone thru which all bounty and grace flows directly to each of us…we need no one to “mediate” His grace to us…not even his mother…she is creature not Creator.

 

[Doxiemom]

Ah, Mary

She was the Woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpent, which means she was the mother of God, in human form

She was full of grace, being pregnant with the Christ (the Lord is with thee)

She is blessed amongst all women

She was a virgin, and remained so. I believe her physical virginity remained the witness, the proof, so to speak, of the miracle of Jesus birth, that being the sole reason, and not to make her into some kind of asexual person.

She was a good most observant jewish woman who agreed to a request by her God

She cried and mourned for her Son

She was “Mommy” who watched her boy grow into Who He was

She was a mother who was scared when her boy went missing and probably would have liked to give him a bit of a smack when she found him at the temple without telling her or his dad but she didn’t because she saw in him God

She was so loved by her son that He thought of her while dying a terrible death and had her cared for

She was so loved by Her Son and by her God that she was allowed to be amongst those in the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit

She had no other title given to her in Scripture other than mother and woman. All other tiltles are from man and reflect what man has imposed on her

There is no Scripture to indicate she was immaculately conceived or assumed into heaven. While this is a possibility because God can choose to do whatever He desires, He chose not to have it Written. Therefore it is nothing more than speculation.

She should be loved . period.

All grace comes from God, through God. Not through Mary.

Mary, nor any saint, provides us with no protection. God may send angels to help us. not saints.

Whether she has appeared to people is still unproven. Could be her, but maybe not. Some things attributed to her saying does not agree with how our story according to prophecy turns out. I side on Scriptural prophecy.

No disrespect for a catholic’s beliefs are meant. I do not see them as sinful nor as silly nor as pagan. I simply try to remain scriptural

 

[Bran_Stark]

Perpetual virginity: I don’t think there’s any reason why Mary had to have remained a virgin after the birth of Christ, but since it’s the established tradition of the Church that she did, I’m inclined to accept it.

Assumption: It’s a nice pious belief, but I don’t see why anyone should be compelled to assent to it under pain of sin.

Intercession: I think that asking Mary, and all the other Saints, to pray for us is a laudable practice. However, it must be most carefully used in order to avoid falling into dangerous superstition. And on an aesthetic note, I find that popular Catholic devotions to Our Lady are sometimes overly-feminine and unattractive.

Immaculate Conception: I’m very uncomfortable with the notion that Mary never sinned.

 

[SteveVH]

She is the best human representative of obeying God. “Whaterver he says to do…do it.”

Yes, exactly.

She was not immaculantly conceived…she was a sinner saved by grace…and she said “Yes” to God when He called her to bear His Son.

That would be your opinion. The Catholic Church teaches that she was never a sinner; she was preserved from sin by the future sacrifice of her Son. She was born pure (immaculate) and remained pure throughout her life.

But it is Christ alone thru which all bounty and grace flows directly to each of us…we need no one to “mediate” His grace to us…not even his mother…she is creature not Creator.

Even if God has chosen that all of his graces will flow through Mary? Yes, of course, all graces are from God, but God uses his creatures in order to fulfill his plan. Mary has nothing of her own, just as none of us do. But she was chosen by God for a very special role and that role does not end with the birth of Christ. It only begins.

 

[SteveVH]

I think it is a predictable result of a male dominated belief system that continues to keep women subservient.

The Catholic Church has championed the dignity of women since its inception and has never kept them “subservient”.

Some people need to see something feminine honored and revered for the sake of balance.

Some people? Who would those people be?

The idea that gender has anything to do with the ability to learn, love or lead in almost any setting: politics, religion, business is a silly, antiquated notion.

Yes it is and has nothing remotely to do with women not being allowed in the priesthood.

There is nothing inherently good or bad about one’s gender.

You will get no argument from Catholics on that point.

I don’t know why the Catholic Church continues to limit the role of women, but as long as their members abide by this decision, there is not likely to be any change.

This is like saying that a man’s role in life is limited because we can’t be mothers. In any case, the Catholic Church is not a democracy so it matters little whether or not the members are in agreement. As it is, we understand what the Church’s teaching is on this matter. Not the Pope, nor the Magesterium can allow women into the priesthood because we must follow the example given to us by Christ.

Quite frankly, the entire hierarchy in the Church seems unnecessary - there is nothing in the New Testament about nuns, friars, Christian priests, Monsignors, Bishops or Popes.

Well, there is plenty about deacons, priests and bishops and plenty about the Apostles having a leader who’s name was Peter. As Christianity grew so did orders of nuns and friars who dedicated there lives completley to God. Christ created a hierarchy by appointing Apostles who were then instructed to appoint bishops to continue their work. The bishops ordained priests and deacons.

In the first few centuries following Christ, there were only gatherings of like-minded people talking about what they knew about Jesus.

That may sound nice but it isn’t accurate. They met to hear the words of the Apostles and to share in the Eucharist. Justyn Martyr gives a very good, first century description of what Christians did when they met. Lo and behold, they went to Mass and had a liturgy, an organized liturgy. Even in Scripture, the Church is described as the “pillar and foundation of truth”, not the opinions of a group of Christians discussing what they know about Jesus.

 

[Godisgreat23]

ummmm…hmmmm…I would reframe from using most holy family monastery anymore. Kind of anti Catholic Church.

That site isn’t anti catholic it actually supports catholic church is true church its anti Vatican 2 it is pretty much against it…

 

[aidanbradypop]

That site isn’t anti catholic it actually supports catholic church is true church its anti Vatican 2 it is pretty much against it…

If you support that view then that’s fine. I think they are merely a hate group full of false propaganda.

 

[Godisgreat23]

Perpetual virginity: I don’t think there’s any reason why Mary had to have remained a virgin after the birth of Christ, but since it’s the established tradition of the Church that she did, I’m inclined to accept it.

Assumption: It’s a nice pious belief, but I don’t see why anyone should be compelled to assent to it under pain of sin.

Intercession: I think that asking Mary, and all the other Saints, to pray for us is a laudable practice. However, it must be most carefully used in order to avoid falling into dangerous superstition. And on an aesthetic note, I find that popular Catholic devotions to Our Lady are sometimes overly-feminine and unattractive.

Immaculate Conception: I’m very uncomfortable with the notion that Mary never sinned.

Read about Eve in the old testament and how god made her sinless but she was disobedient god made her the Mother of Living but god mad mary even greater than Eve and you can she had all the characteristics didn’t have faithful, obedient.

The fact the god chose Mary above any other women shows that she was special.

What we need to remember is the sacrifice Jesus made. He sent is only spotless sinless son to die for all of us. If he chose someone to be born in human form it was Mary why Mary not anyone else? Think of it…

Angel Gabriel was a messenger from god right? The message was just passed on by the Eternal Father so that salutation wasn’t from Angel Gabriel but from the Eternal Father…

PS do you believe in incorruptibility or do you have some belief that it doesn’t exist. John XXIII body is still in corrupt and one of the important dogma he passed is Mary is queen of heaven and earth…

I’m not sure how you interpret Revelation 12 verse…

 

[Godisgreat23]

If you support that view then that’s fine. I think they are merely a hate group full of false propaganda.

I only used that PDF since it covers the topic you were interested in detail and one of the best articles I’ve found on the subject and since this thread started on this subject I guess its a must read… I like to read about different views before I come to a conclusion I read every aspect and analyze every angle

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/the_bible_on_the_blessed_virgin_mary.pdf

 

[aidanbradypop]

I only used that PDF since it covers the topic you were interested in detail and one of the best articles I’ve found on the subject and since this thread started on this subject I guess its a must read…

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/the_bible_on_the_blessed_virgin_mary.pdf

They do have some good articles for sure and thanks for sharing. Just not a big fan of the site as a whole is all

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ah, Mary

She was the Woman whose seed would crush the head of the serpent, which means she was the mother of God, in human form

She was full of grace, being pregnant with the Christ (the Lord is with thee)

She is blessed amongst all women

She was a virgin, and remained so. I believe her physical virginity remained the witness, the proof, so to speak, of the miracle of Jesus birth, that being the sole reason, and not to make her into some kind of asexual person.

She was a good most observant jewish woman who agreed to a request by her God

She cried and mourned for her Son

She was “Mommy” who watched her boy grow into Who He was

She was a mother who was scared when her boy went missing and probably would have liked to give him a bit of a smack when she found him at the temple without telling her or his dad but she didn’t because she saw in him God

She was so loved by her son that He thought of her while dying a terrible death and had her cared for

She was so loved by Her Son and by her God that she was allowed to be amongst those in the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit

She had no other title given to her in Scripture other than mother and woman. All other tiltles are from man and reflect what man has imposed on her

There is no Scripture to indicate she was immaculately conceived or assumed into heaven. While this is a possibility because God can choose to do whatever He desires, He chose not to have it Written. Therefore it is nothing more than speculation.

She should be loved . period.

All grace comes from God, through God. Not through Mary.

Mary, nor any saint, provides us with no protection. God may send angels to help us. not saints.

Whether she has appeared to people is still unproven. Could be her, but maybe not. Some things attributed to her saying does not agree with how our story according to prophecy turns out. I side on Scriptural prophecy.

No disrespect for a catholic’s beliefs are meant. I do not see them as sinful nor as silly nor as pagan. I simply try to remain scriptural

I can see how one would be at odds with Mariology if you are basing your belief soley on scripture alon.

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

The Catholic Church has championed the dignity of women since its inception and has never kept them “subservient”.

I disagree. There are so many examples of this, it is ridiculous to cite them. I do not fault the history of the church. Until just recently, rule of law in the majority of the world limited the rights, education, and position of women. Finally, in the age of reason (or something close to it) people see the lack of truth in holding any one group of people above or below others.

Some people? Who would those people be?

Those that subscribe to ‘Mariology’. The OP requested an ‘outsiders’ view of this uniquely Catholic phenomenon. My mother and maternal grandmother is/were Catholic and both subscribe(d) to the veneration of Mary. I am not affiliated with any organized religion presently, although I am Christian.

This is like saying that a man’s role in life is limited because we can’t be mothers.

No - the Church does not limit men in any way. Biology prevents men from being mothers and women from being sperm donors. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

In any case, the Catholic Church is not a democracy so it matters little whether or not the members are in agreement.

Indeed. The rigidity in any belief system is indicative of the likelihood to develop splinter factions.

Not the Pope, nor the Magesterium can allow women into the priesthood because we must follow the example given to us by Christ… Well, there is plenty about deacons, priests and bishops and plenty about the Apostles having a leader who’s name was Peter.

That statement defies facts, logic and reason on too many levels. ‘The Church’ is not a disembodied entity with a mind of it’s own. Human beings make the church, human beings make decisions to establish rules and hierarchy and they chose whether or not to abide by them. Jesus did not say anything about women not being allowed to become priests. The only priests mentioned in the New Testament were Jewish Temple leaders. Mary Magdalene was a disciple of Christ, present at the crucifixion, burial, discovery of the empty tomb, and according to 3 of the 4 gospels - the first to see Jesus resurrected. Jesus certainly seemed to see her value, so it is curious that 600 years later, Pope Gregory the Great (homily XXXIII) decided she was a prostitute, even though the bible said nothing of the sort.

This is all beside the point. The Catholic religion is male dominated, and it has gone to some effort in keeping it that way. Even when it’s own priests disagree with the decision and ordains women as Catholic Priests, they are all excommunicated. The OP asked how outsiders viewed Mariology, I answered. Your argument to my opinion is invalid.

Peace and prosperity to all - men, women, children, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, brown eyes or blue, and no amount of melanin present in one’s skin eliminated.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Read about Eve in the old testament and how god made her sinless but she was disobedient god made her the Mother of Living but god mad mary even greater than Eve and you can she had all the characteristics didn’t have faithful, obedient.

I agree with all of this. Mary is the New Eve. But that doesn’t make her sinless.

The fact the god chose Mary above any other women shows that she was special.

What we need to remember is the sacrifice Jesus made. He sent is only spotless sinless son to die for all of us. If he chose someone to be born in human form it was Mary why Mary not anyone else? Think of it…

Did God chose Mary because she was special? Or is Mary special because God chose her? The latter reason is far more important in my eyes. Consider Our Lady’s words in the Magnificat:

“My soul doth magnify the Lord,
and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded
the lowliness of his handmaiden.”

Setting aside the observation that God has apparently “saved” her from something, I note that the reason she is rejoicing is that God has, for his own mysterious reasons, condescended to give her a grace which she neither expected nor deserved.

I’m not sure how you interpret Revelation 12 verse…

The woman clothed with the sun? Maybe she stands for Israel, maybe for the Church, and yes, maybe for the Blessed Virgin. But no matter what the identity of this puzzling image may be, I don’t see how we can draw any conclusions about Catholic Marian dogmas from it.