Protestant View of Mariology

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What Roman Catholic cares about what a protestant may, or may not, think?

No Roman Catholic should concern themselves with what a protestant, muslim or any other denomination thinks about what, in this instance, Roman Catholics hold very dear namely the reverence of Our Lady.

Frankly from a Roman Catholic perspective, what a protestant thinks is irrelevant.
It is interesting to hear where Protestants are coming from. You are semi right as in it should not matter what they believe as far as my faith is concerned but it is interesting as to how far they have gone away from Christ’s Church on teachings on doctrine.
Not exactly sola scripture. I read and follow others much more learned than I who use the writings of the early church fathers and old jewish scholar writings. And then even some very good education from leaders of Torah Jews who give deep meanings into word studies and (surprize!) jewish TRADITIONS. They will use some non-scriptural texts that were referred to in the Bible for more nuggets for understanding.

Matter of fact, NASA has recently been used to document the coming of 4 blood moons and a solar eclipse between the first 2 and the last 2 starting in year 2014 that land exactly on Passover and Sukot.
newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm A wonderful read when you have time. 😉
Here is also a very good video by them on the Apparitions at Guadalupe its really nice…

youtube.com/watch?v=xe4Ozm0oENk
I will check it out. 😉
I never realized how deep my faith has grown in Christ through Mary, or the sacred mysteries she has helped me desire about my faith in God.

Likewise she is the epitome of the communion of saints that we enjoy, and on a more simple level, Mary makes the Church a family.
Very refreshing to hear Kathleen!
 
What Roman Catholic cares about what a protestant may, or may not, think?
Well, I would say that at least the OP of this thread is interested. Remember, you’re in the Non-Catholic Religions forum, the purpose of which is stated as:

Non-Catholic Religions - explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027

If you don’t want to explore the beliefs of non-Catholics, you might not be in the right forum.
 
Well, I would say that at least the OP of this thread is interested. Remember, you’re in the Non-Catholic Religions forum, the purpose of which is stated as:

Non-Catholic Religions - explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=162027

If you don’t want to explore the beliefs of non-Catholics, you might not be in the right forum.
What he said lol
 
Not exactly sola scripture. I read and follow others much more learned than I who use the writings of the early church fathers and old jewish scholar writings. And then even some very good education from leaders of Torah Jews who give deep meanings into word studies and (surprize!) jewish TRADITIONS. They will use some non-scriptural texts that were referred to in the Bible for more nuggets for understanding.

Matter of fact, NASA has recently been used to document the coming of 4 blood moons and a solar eclipse between the first 2 and the last 2 starting in year 2014 that land exactly on Passover and Sukot.
The Early Church Fathers referred to Mary as the second Eve. Where the first Eve was disobedient by sinning the second Eve (Mary) was obedient by not sinning. This is the natural conclusion to Genesis 3:15 where God says that He would put enmity between Satan and the woman (Mary). If Mary were to sin there would be no enmity or complete separation between her and Satan.

Justin Martyr[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

IrenaeusConsequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

OrigenThis Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

HippolytusHe [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the SyrianYou alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of MilanCome, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory NazianzenHe was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).–

AugustineWe must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of AncryaA virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of ConstantinopleAs He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the MelodistThen the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).
 
Aidenbradypop…

Thanks for the early church references. I believe Mary made herself known in the work of salvation as early as 200 AD. I just have to find the source, and as Christ is God, Mary Theotokos is the Mother of God and has been venerated as such in the Eastern Church. We have her icon in several parishes, Theotokos.

I worked last year with a Greek widow. The other worker told me, after being in their house all day, that she is a Christian. I asked what are you talking about?..she pointed to the icons of Mary. They had numerous icons of Mary in the house. I asked what church she went to. And I told her, no, I am Catholic, and I am a Christian and this house is a Christian house. It ended that.
 
What Roman Catholic cares about what a protestant may, or may not, think?

No Roman Catholic should concern themselves with what a protestant, muslim or any other denomination thinks about what, in this instance, Roman Catholics hold very dear namely the reverence of Our Lady.

Frankly from a Roman Catholic perspective, what a protestant thinks is irrelevant.
You do realize Muslims give Mary a huge amount of respect, I believe there are 2 chapters in the Quran that speak about Mary’s virginity and how she was sinless throughout her life. They also believe in Jesus ( Isa) but they don’t believe he is son of god instead he was just a prophet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_in_Islam
 
Interestingly enough, it is Muslim veneration of Mary that we can share as Catholics.

I read somewhere that Blessed Mother, always interceding for us and first evangelizer…she went to Elizabeth to bear the Good News of Jesus Christ, and St. John the Baptist was the first unborn child to recognize the Messiah…

That someday it will be our Blessed Mother who will convert the Muslims to Christ.

Adding here…the first evangelizer for Jesus Christ was a married housewife.
 
You do realize Muslims give Mary a huge amount of respect, I believe there are 2 chapters in the Quran that speak about Mary’s virginity and how she was sinless throughout her life. They also believe in Jesus ( Isa) but they don’t believe he is son of god instead he was just a prophet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_in_Islam
Interestingly enough, it is Muslim veneration of Mary that we can share as Catholics.

I read somewhere that Blessed Mother, always interceding for us and first evangelizer…she went to Elizabeth to bear the Good News of Jesus Christ, and St. John the Baptist was the first unborn child to recognize the Messiah…

That someday it will be our Blessed Mother who will convert the Muslims to Christ.

Adding here…the first evangelizer for Jesus Christ was a married housewife.
Islam give more credit to the BVM than most Protestant denominations do. 🤷
 
Islam give more credit to the BVM than most Protestant denominations do. 🤷
Sad but that’s true 🤷 She is mentioned more in Quran talks about her parents etc I don’t think the bible mentions who were BVM’s parents but then again I could be wrong…
 
Luther expressed his belief in the PV and IC of the Blessed Mother. Her Assumption was not known to Luther because he could not find in Scripture where is was stated. Here are two articles speaking about Luther’s view on the Blessed Mother.

catholicbridge.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther%27s_views_on_Mary

What’s interesting to learn is that with each reform of a reform, Mary tends to be pushed farther out of the picture. Her role in salvation becomes less and less and Her sinlessness turns into sin.
 
They are hard to believe because they are not normal, not scriptural, and not necessary. Only Jesus is described as being without sin, and there are scriptures indicating that, other than Christ, all have sinned; that would include Mary, unless there is clear scriptural warrant for saying she did not sin. As to PV, there have been long threads on the subject, and I don’t believe there is absolute scriptural proof on either side of the question; however, a normal reading of the text indicates that Mary and Joseph had other children who were described as the brothers and sisters of Jesus, so that is what I choose to believe. On the issue of the AoM, again there is simply no scriptural record of so unusual a thing having occurred. The scriptures tell us of Elijah and Enoch, but not a word about something similar having happened to Mary. Not believing in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, or assumption of Mary in no way reduces the respect and honor she is due, nor does it detract from the miracle of Christ’s virgin birth or the work He came to perform.
Does that include all the babies murdered in abortions?

or

Does that include those with Mental disabilities?

or

Does that include all the babies and infants that die before being able to reason?

After all, your arguments seems to include ALL. That means that it is your opinion that all the groups I have mentioned above are not excluded…

Looking forward to hearing from you on these matters.

Peace,

Jose
 
First, I must say I’m impressed by the mostly polite and respectful dialogue on this thread, especially given that this is such an important topic for many people.
For me, the Blessed Virgin Mother holds a dear place in my heart.
That is a feeling I share as well! I believe she should be greatly respected. She was humble, kind, loving, blessed, patient, the list goes on. I believe that any person of any faith (or even lack thereof) would find something admirable in Mary if they respectfully considered all she did and stood for. And I believe the world would be a better place for it as well.

I do not believe in praying directly to Mary, since my own views are ‘why not pray directly to God?’. But I do believe that anyone who prays fervently to Mary will be touched and blessed by God, as their intentions are good and their hearts devout. I do not believe in the immaculate conception or the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity either. But again, I respect anyone who does.

Thank you all for the considerate dialogue.
 
Does that include all the babies murdered in abortions?

or

Does that include those with Mental disabilities?

or

Does that include all the babies and infants that die before being able to reason?

After all, your arguments seems to include ALL. That means that it is your opinion that all the groups I have mentioned above are not excluded…

Looking forward to hearing from you on these matters.

Peace,

Jose
As terrible as all those are, I would wager the above would be covered under the doctrine of original sin. So, yes?

Despite many protestant denominations view of scripture alone, they usually have a tradition of an age of accountability where their sin is overlooked, hopefully. At least, as it has been explained to me. I personally have grown more fond of infant Baptism as the years go on.

I am not certain the level of veneration of Mary in the Roman Church is something that will ever be explained satisfactorily to me, but look forward to being able to have civil discussions upon it prayerfully in the future as it seems most posters here engage in them. It’s quite refreshing!
 
I do not believe in praying directly to Mary, since my own views are ‘why not pray directly to God?’. But I do believe that anyone who prays fervently to Mary will be touched and blessed by God, as their intentions are good and their hearts devout.
The Catholic response to this would be, if that is what you believe, then why ask your friends or family to pray for you if you don’t believe in asking Mary to pray for you?

And it is good to remember that for Catholics, any attention shown to Mary is to bring us closer to Jesus, the bridegroom of the Church. Don’t you think you’d be closer to your spouse if you got to know their parents as well?
 
As terrible as all those are, I would wager the above would be covered under the doctrine of original sin. So, yes?

Despite many protestant denominations view of scripture alone, they usually have a tradition of an age of accountability where their sin is overlooked, hopefully. At least, as it has been explained to me. I personally have grown more fond of infant Baptism as the years go on.

I am not certain the level of veneration of Mary in the Roman Church is something that will ever be explained satisfactorily to me, but look forward to being able to have civil discussions upon it prayerfully in the future as it seems most posters here engage in them. It’s quite refreshing!
Being conceived in sin is quite different than sinning.

How can any of the persons I mentioned be capable of sinning by themselves? If we take Paul at face value then “all” includes Jesus Christ… Paul is making an universal affirmative statement without any exceptions.

How exactly are those souls murdered in the wombs of their mothers sinning? A 2 year old? An autistic child?

Which by the way, is why I believe with all my heart in infant baptism. Bring these souls into the New Covenant!

Mary is a great advocate in Heaven. I ask my family and friends for prayers (advocates).

Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

I ask Her as well! 🙂
 
Being conceived in sin is quite different than sinning.

How can any of the persons I mentioned be capable of sinning by themselves? If we take Paul at face value then “all” includes Jesus Christ… Paul is making an universal affirmative statement without any exceptions.

How exactly are those souls murdered in the wombs of their mothers sinning? A 2 year old? An autistic child?

Which by the way, is why I believe with all my heart in infant baptism. Bring these souls into the New Covenant!

Mary is a great advocate in Heaven. I ask my family and friends for prayers (advocates).

Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

I ask Her as well! 🙂
Yes, conceived in sin is different than sinning. Those poor souls murdered before birth are clearly incapable of sinning. However they would be conceived in original sin, and therefore damned, yes? This is what the Christ died to save us from. I honestly don’t know the state of those lost children. I can only pray for God’s mercy upon them and us.

Regarding Paul making a universal statement without exceptions, I’ll defer to someone who knows the Greek better than I do on what “all” means in this context. I know that some Hyper-Calvinists will argue that the word “all” in the passage where God desires all to be saved doesn’t really mean ‘all’ people. Yet in this instance, it means everyone.

The Day of Atonement passage in Leviticus mentions statues that are ‘forever’, however apparently that word doesn’t mean what we normally think it means. The same could be true for something simple as the word all.

So yes, as in many things with translations, all may mean all people, or it may mean all of some people or it may mean a group, or basically whatever you need it to so as to fit your argument 😉
 
Yes, conceived in sin is different than sinning. Those poor souls murdered before birth are clearly incapable of sinning. However they would be conceived in original sin, and therefore damned, yes? This is what the Christ died to save us from. I honestly don’t know the state of those lost children. I can only pray for God’s mercy upon them and us.

Regarding Paul making a universal statement without exceptions, I’ll defer to someone who knows the Greek better than I do on what “all” means in this context. I know that some Hyper-Calvinists will argue that the word “all” in the passage where God desires all to be saved doesn’t really mean ‘all’ people. Yet in this instance, it means everyone.

The Day of Atonement passage in Leviticus mentions statues that are ‘forever’, however apparently that word doesn’t mean what we normally think it means. The same could be true for something simple as the word all.

So yes, as in many things with translations, all may mean all people, or it may mean all of some people or it may mean a group, or basically whatever you need it to so as to fit your argument 😉
And where is that in the Bible? 😉

How can all mean something in a passage but it doesn’t really mean something in another passage although another universal affirmative is used?

I think the only way to understand it is through Sacred Tradition.

More important:

Who has the authority to tell the difference?

Christ’s Church or individual persons?

If a group of us, say 125 each grab a Bible and we all can’t agree on what it means… What do you think we are going to do to the Body of Christ? Divide it?

And herein lies the humblest of lessons. To differ to the authority of those designated by Christ Himself to care for the faithful.

The most ironic thing is that some people ask Catholics about where is the BV Mary devotion in the Bible? But are unable to ask their Pastors where is that tithing mandated in the New Testament? or When did God say that it’s ok to have His Book as authority over His Church? The same Church that received and protected His book. The same Church that understands the mysteries of the Word of God. The same Church that understands the role of our Lord’s earthly Mother. Think about that for a second… God’s Mom in the flesh… Do you not think that Mom is extraordinary from all others? It just blows me away, who amongst ALL women was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God? Mary.

Have we read where Mary had to go through fire? Or that she had to be cleansed before the Holy Spirit impregnation? Who else in the Bible was able to receive the Lord in the fullness of Mary?

I mean how stubborn and stiffed neck do I have to be to not understand the miracle and the gift that Mary was to human kind?

Peace,

Jose
 
Bl Duns Scotus on the IC “Either God was able to do this, and did not will to do it, or He willed to preserve her, and was unable to do so.”

(J. B. Carol, Mariology I, 368)

Mankind was taken hostage by death, God is not subject to this.
 
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