Protestant View of Mariology

[KathleenGee]

What theology proves Mary is a sinner? Where is it? You cannot find it because there is no great theologian with high educational level who can say such a thing.

If Christians believed in the Eucharist and experienced the almighty presence of God, they would understand better why Mary was conceived without sin.

Jesus existed before Mary. He was in Spirit. When the Heavenly Father created Mary in her conception, in her free will she affirmed Christ as savior and redeemer of the world, her fiat both fulfilling God’s will for her and her yes in that she is saved by Christ as well as His mother.

People doubt this or that with no theological backgrounds, just lack of faith and dissension. Read the epistles and see where dissension is included with other behaviors against the true faith.

To say that she had sex after Christ’s birth to us…well, moving on, our faith is based on a different experience of God.

To say that our devotion to Mary is based on subservience is not based on truth. True Christianity is based on the faithful servant. We are all subservient to God. Christ calls us to serve Him in those who are suffering and in need. And we are all suffering inside ourselves one way or another.

Mary subservient in human terms?

I did not have devotion to Mary growing up. I went to Catholic schools 9 years. I encountered Mary serving the poor. The first thing I received was Mary was that she placed me in that kingdom where there is no sin. I experienced the kingdom beyond my self and my own sinfulness.

She places us where we can face God, she gives us confidence of His mercy and forgiveness when either our lack of faith or own sinfulness blocks our hope. This has nothing to do with sex or being subservient.

Misunderstandings reveal a lack of comprehension of the profound spiritual depth of our religious experience. I blame it on false teachers who if they do not repent, will end up in the pool with the False Prophet.

Mary is the model for all women, the greatest helper of us to become chaste and holy.

 

[TristanH]

What theology proves Mary is a sinner? Where is it? You cannot find it because there is no great theologian with high educational level who can say such a thing.

Well, there would be Paul. Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

And 1st John 1:8 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

You could argue that they did not have a high educational level. (Depending upon your definition)

Now you can certainly come up with an argument to try and work around the above, (not talking about original sin, but personal sin, etc.) but you certainly can’t claim there is no theology that would possibly lead people to believe that yes, Mary was a sinner.

 

[Lisa1967]

I am not interested in Luther’s or Calvin’s view so please do not make this thread another Luther bashing one! Thanks I would like to know your personal opinion of Mariology?

For me, the Blessed Virgin Mother holds a dear place in my heart.

At first I had a hard time with it when I became a Catholic, because I grew up a Methodist and we didn’t venerate Mary the way Catholics do.

However, I had several experiences which brought me closer to her.

The first occurred when I was a college student driving several people home from a church gathering. Dear friends had given me a statue of Mary and it was in the car trunk. That night the car was hit by another car, and our car was totaled. We walked away from the accident with only some cuts and such, and I believe the Blessed Mother had something to do with it.

The second incident occurred in graduate school. I lived near the parish, and some friends and I formed a rosary circle. We each took turns keeping the large Mary statue in our rooms. I always liked it when I had the statue. I think this devotion helped me through school.

Even though I don’t attend the Catholic church, I still pray Hail Marys at times.

 

[aidanbradypop]

At first I had a hard time with it when I became a Catholic, because I grew up a Methodist and we didn’t venerate Mary the way Catholics do.

However, I had several experiences which brought me closer to her.

The first occurred when I was a college student driving several people home from a church gathering. Dear friends had given me a statue of Mary and it was in the car trunk. That night the car was hit by another car, and our car was totaled. We walked away from the accident with only some cuts and such, and I believe the Blessed Mother had something to do with it.

The second incident occurred in graduate school. I lived near the parish, and some friends and I formed a rosary circle. We each took turns keeping the large Mary statue in our rooms. I always liked it when I had the statue. I think this devotion helped me through school.

Even though I don’t attend the Catholic church, I still pray Hail Marys at times.

So you were Methodist>Catholic> non catholic? Its nice to hear you never stopped your love for the Blessed Mother

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Why is it necessary? Why does it matter if Mary remained a virgin? What harm would come from the possibility that Jesus had siblings? I’m not saying he did or didn’t, although Matthew 13:55-56 plainly names Mary, that Joseph was a carpenter, his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas, and states all of his sisters were present. Some speculate that Jesus may have married and had children - which would certainly be part of ‘the human experience’, it would be considered ‘normal’ - along with coming from a large Jewish family.

None of that detracts from His message - his revolutionary teaching to dispel ‘eye for an eye’ and instead to turn the other cheek. His audacious mission to get people to treat each other well, despite wealth, education or social standing. Religious leaders of His time were horrified that he seemed to prefer the company of beggars, lepers, prostitutes - the lowest of society. The elevation of some people over others seems antithetical to His teachings.

 

[butbob]

Well, there would be Paul. Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

And 1st John 1:8 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

You could argue that they did not have a high educational level. (Depending upon your definition)

Now you can certainly come up with an argument to try and work around the above, (not talking about original sin, but personal sin, etc.) but you certainly can’t claim there is no theology that would possibly lead people to believe that yes, Mary was a sinner.

oh no-- i don’t think you are allowed to think or say that?–
you’re in trouble now!!

 

[KathleenGee]

When I speak of high intellectual level, I am reflecting on the 1800 years of theological documented debate and reflection going on since the beginnings of the Church. Mary was already venerated in the earliest times.

Right there tells something was lost in the split from the universal Christian faith by Protestants.

Likewise there is something lost when you do not have the pope. Look at the great burden and anticipation to have a new head representing Christ in our Church all over the world. This is not something man made but reflects the universal faith that we share in the Holy Spirit.

Protestant theology so often times is partially a protest rather than a verification and praise of the Lord…without the Catholics and the pope and Mary…what would fill that void???

 

[SteveVH]

I disagree. There are so many examples of this, it is ridiculous to cite them.

Why don’t you go ahead and humor us.

Those that subscribe to ‘Mariology’.

Mariology is simply the study of Mary.

No - the Church does not limit men in any way.

How about celibacy, vows of poverty, obedience to one’s bishop…?

Biology prevents men from being mothers and women from being sperm donors. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I disagree. Men and women have different, but complementary roles because of their biology. One is not better than the other, one is not more worthy than the other, but they are different. Our modern society is doing its best to blur the differences between male and female and we find certain faith traditions, such as yours, apparently, that have bought inot this.

The New Testament priesthood is the priesthood of Christ Himself. All men who have become priests participate in Christ’s priesthood in a very special way: They act in persona Christi, in the person of Christ who was a man. But the reason that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women begins with Christ himself.

The ordination of men is an unbroken tradition that goes back not only to the Apostles but to Christ Himself. Jesus chose men to form the college of the twelve apostles. The apostles did the same when they chose bishops to succeed them in their ministry. In other words, this was a teaching handed down from the Apostles who based their ministry on the example of Christ and therefore the Church is bound by this choice made by Jesus himself. That is why the ordination of women is not possible.

‘The Church’ is not a disembodied entity with a mind of it’s own. Human beings make the church, human beings make decisions to establish rules and hierarchy and they chose whether or not to abide by them.

This may very well be the case with ecclesial communities with which you are familiar, but it is not the case with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a divine institution with Christ as its head. The Church has been given the authority of Christ himself; the keys to the kingdom of God; the power to bind and loose; the power to forgive sins. Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide it into all truth and that the gates of hell would never prevail against it. This isn’t your run of the mill “Bible Church” that just found space in the mall. It is the Church Christ established. It is where Christ dwells; body, blood, soul and divinity. It was the Apostles who set up the hierarchy, establishing churches and ordaining bishops, priests and deacons to minister to the world. It has been this way for 2000 years, which always makes it so nice when one who does not even belong to a Church criticizes the very Church that Christ himself founded.

 

[pablope]

Why is it necessary? Why does it matter if Mary remained a virgin?

That was Mary’s choice…she felt it was necessary…so do you question her choice?

The elevation of some people over others seems antithetical to His teachings.

 

[SteveVH]

Jesus did not say anything about women not being allowed to become priests.

If actions speak louder than words, he certainly did say something by choosing all men to be his Apostles, with the Apostles following suit by choosing all men to be bishops, priests and deacons. Was Jesus a bigot? Were the Apostles bigots?

The only priests mentioned in the New Testament were Jewish Temple leaders.

From Catholic Answers:

*The English word “priest” is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as “elder” or “presbyter.” The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear–except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)–the word may rightly be translated as “priest” instead of “elder” or “presbyter.” *

Mary Magdalene was a disciple of Christ, present at the crucifixion, burial, discovery of the empty tomb, and according to 3 of the 4 gospels - the first to see Jesus resurrected. Jesus certainly seemed to see her value

Yes, Jesus did see her value, and yet he didn’t make her a priest. He obviously saw his mother’s value as well, but not even she was ordained a priest. Are you starting to see a pattern here?

so it is curious that 600 years later, Pope Gregory the Great (homily XXXIII) decided she was a prostitute, even though the bible said nothing of the sort.

Pope Gregory the Great simply identified the penitent woman in Luke 7:36 with Mary Magdalene mentioned in John 20:11-18 and with Mary, the sister of Martha and Lazarus found in Luke 10:38-42. The Bible says plenty about the subject. This was in no way said to discredit Mary Magdalene who the Church has canonized as a Saint. Give me a break.

Your argument to my opinion is invalid.

Sorry, you can’t make the statements you have made and not expect to be challenged on a Catholic forum. You cannot spread falsehoods and then hide under the protection of “its just my opinion”.

 

[Hasire]

What theology proves Mary is a sinner? Where is it? You cannot find it because there is no great theologian with high educational level who can say such a thing.

If Christians believed in the Eucharist and experienced the almighty presence of God, they would understand better why Mary was conceived without sin.

Jesus existed before Mary. He was in Spirit. When the Heavenly Father created Mary in her conception, in her free will she affirmed Christ as savior and redeemer of the world, her fiat both fulfilling God’s will for her and her yes in that she is saved by Christ as well as His mother.

People doubt this or that with no theological backgrounds, just lack of faith and dissension. Read the epistles and see where dissension is included with other behaviors against the true faith.

To say that she had sex after Christ’s birth to us…well, moving on, our faith is based on a different experience of God.

To say that our devotion to Mary is based on subservience is not based on truth. True Christianity is based on the faithful servant. We are all subservient to God. Christ calls us to serve Him in those who are suffering and in need. And we are all suffering inside ourselves one way or another.

Mary subservient in human terms?

I did not have devotion to Mary growing up. I went to Catholic schools 9 years. I encountered Mary serving the poor. The first thing I received was Mary was that she placed me in that kingdom where there is no sin. I experienced the kingdom beyond my self and my own sinfulness.

She places us where we can face God, she gives us confidence of His mercy and forgiveness when either our lack of faith or own sinfulness blocks our hope. This has nothing to do with sex or being subservient.

Misunderstandings reveal a lack of comprehension of the profound spiritual depth of our religious experience. I blame it on false teachers who if they do not repent, will end up in the pool with the False Prophet.

Mary is the model for all women, the greatest helper of us to become chaste and holy.

St. John Chrysostom’s theology, and the Bible that says that all have sinned except Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yet Mary is blessed above all women, and she is blessed because of the fruit of her womb, Jesus. She is full of grace. We are full of sin.

The Church’s explanation of Mary is that she was conceived without sin, but at her conception she, in free will, said yes to the will of God, and C hrist Who was before that Fiat, Spirit, became Man with Mary’s flesh and blood that had no sin.

Our understanding of Mary reflects the fullness of faith in Christ Who is True God and True Man, the latter through Mary, becoming True Man. This is tremendous and reflects the state of Mary.

Likewise she was in continual adoration of the Son of God, and I would think she would remain virgin.

Many non-Catholics are not aware of married couples who have chosen to live together and remain celibate for the sake of Gospel. Mary knew her mission to give Christ her body and blood, to nurture Him and care for Him was a mission that spoke to all mankind and all times.

Before Christ, as a woman, she had the greatest vocation of any women. If you know nuns who have not seen Jesus, or the eraly martyrs who died for Him that wanted to be solelky for Him, would not you think Mary was equally capable as them or less???

Likewise, contraception was condemned by Christianity. A protestant church allowed it and it eventually spread throughout Christianity. And subsequently, we have become a culture obsessed with sex.

Do you think, regarding the celibacy of nuns who have given their entire lives to God, and to the women martyrs of the Church, who never met Christ, however that Mary would then prefer a life of sex aside from Jesus???

 

[mlz]

i was raised protestant, currently seeking conversion - i thought i would have a harder time with the whole Mary concept, but instead, it became so easy for me to accept her, the immaculate conception,perp virginity and assumption.
i have read a several books on her and i have no problems addressing her as my Holy Mother. whenever i am picking up my rosary, i ask her to come and pray with me. i have been praying the rosary daily for the past 5 months and have been overwhelmed by with a sense of her presence and my understanding of her.

I know what you mean!
mlz

 

[Limerickman]

What Roman Catholic cares about what a protestant may, or may not, think?

No Roman Catholic should concern themselves with what a protestant, muslim or any other denomination thinks about what, in this instance, Roman Catholics hold very dear namely the reverence of Our Lady.

Frankly from a Roman Catholic perspective, what a protestant thinks is irrelevant.

 

[Doxiemom]

I can see how one would be at odds with Mariology if you are basing your belief soley on scripture alon.

Not exactly sola scripture. I read and follow others much more learned than I who use the writings of the early church fathers and old jewish scholar writings. And then even some very good education from leaders of Torah Jews who give deep meanings into word studies and (surprize!) jewish TRADITIONS. They will use some non-scriptural texts that were referred to in the Bible for more nuggets for understanding.

Matter of fact, NASA has recently been used to document the coming of 4 blood moons and a solar eclipse between the first 2 and the last 2 starting in year 2014 that land exactly on Passover and Sukot.

 

[Doxiemom]

What Roman Catholic cares about what a protestant may, or may not, think?

No Roman Catholic should concern themselves with what a protestant, muslim or any other denomination thinks about what, in this instance, Roman Catholics hold very dear namely the reverence of Our Lady.

Frankly from a Roman Catholic perspective, what a protestant thinks is irrelevant.

And perhaps this is why some other Christians don’t care what a catholic thinks of them?

Shame on all of us for this kind of petty bickering.

 

[Limerickman]

And perhaps this is why some other Christians don’t care what a catholic thinks of them?

Shame on all of us for this kind of petty bickering.

No.

The right thinking Roman Catholic should not be concerned about what any other denomination thinks, because what others may think is irrelevant.

 

[Doxiemom]

No.

The right thinking Roman Catholic should not be concerned about what any other denomination thinks, because what others may think is irrelevant.

Ok. Stay away.

 

[Godisgreat23]

They do have some good articles for sure and thanks for sharing. Just not a big fan of the site as a whole is all

Here is also a very good video by them on the Apparitions at Guadalupe its really nice…

youtube.com/watch?v=xe4Ozm0oENk

 

[KathleenGee]

I never realized how deep my faith has grown in Christ through Mary, or the sacred mysteries she has helped me desire about my faith in God.

Likewise she is the epitome of the communion of saints that we enjoy, and on a more simple level, Mary makes the Church a family.