Protestant View of Mariology

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Gary…yes it was a Franciscan…who approach Christ’s humanity, vs Dominicans who approach the Godhead, who won the debate on Mary.

Just like Jesus…you must encounter Mary rather than read about her.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Joseph probably had a say in it, too.

Jon

Personally, I would not want to be sexual with my wife if she just gave birth to God. I’m pretty sure every other human male would feel the same way.

First, I must say I’m impressed by the mostly polite and respectful dialogue on this thread, especially given that this is such an important topic for many people.

I believe this subject of the Blessed Mother should never be disrespectful on either side. I created this thread to gain insight on the Protestant view and for the most part everyone is being so respectful and open. I enjoy that. Thank you for stopping by Peter!

I am not certain the level of veneration of Mary in the Roman Church is something that will ever be explained satisfactorily to me, but look forward to being able to have civil discussions upon it prayerfully in the future as it seems most posters here engage in them. It’s quite refreshing!

Hi Tristan. Thank you for stopping by the thread and giving your thoughts. I am glad the thread is going the way it is. As I stated above, this issue should never been one that we argue about. I doubt the Blessed Mother would ever want us to fight about her.

The Catholic response to this would be, if that is what you believe, then why ask your friends or family to pray for you if you don’t believe in asking Mary to pray for you?

And it is good to remember that for Catholics, any attention shown to Mary is to bring us closer to Jesus, the bridegroom of the Church. Don’t you think you’d be closer to your spouse if you got to know their parents as well?

Do you know my mother-in-law? lol

 

[Stilldreamn]

I am aware that once in a while my beliefs skate on the edge of Lutheran Orthodoxy as is the case of my personal beliefs about the BVM. I address her briefly in my morning and evening prayers and ask that she tuck my prayers in with hers. Just as she was at the foot of the cross, so she still is close to her Son.

Of the Assumption, IC & PV - since there is no Scripture saying these are absolutely not true, I will go with tradition. As a Lutheran, I believe that my salvation does not hinge on my certainty of these. My salvation is in Christ; His death and resurrection. Mary’s message to us: “Listen to my Son. Do what He tells you.”

Amen, Mary.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I am aware that once in a while my beliefs skate on the edge of Lutheran Orthodoxy as is the case of my personal beliefs about the BVM. I address her briefly in my morning and evening prayers and ask that she tuck my prayers in with hers. Just as she was at the foot of the cross, so she still is close to her Son.

Of the Assumption, IC & PV - since there is no Scripture saying these are absolutely not true, I will go with tradition. As a Lutheran, I believe that my salvation does not hinge on my certainty of these. My salvation is in Christ; His death and resurrection. Mary’s message to us: “Listen to my Son. Do what He tells you.”

Amen, Mary.

I think it mostly kind of depends on the person. I know many Catholics who do not have or care to have a desire for a prayer life with the Blessed Mother.

However, I know a few Protestant (Anglo Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian) that do have a devotion to our Mother.

 

[pablope]

pablope;10499615:

Joseph probably had a say in it, too.

Jon

Good point Jon.

From Matt 1:

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

After considering divorcing Mary…and an angel comes and talks to you…how could one even think of becoming sexual with someone chosen by God? She obviously was one annointed by God for a holy purpose.

Re-reading the story of David and Saul, David has opportunities to slay Saul, but would not do it because Saul was still God’s annointed. The soldier who told David that Saul had died, and when David asks the soldier how, the soldier says he did it…David has that soldier killed for touching God’s annointed. I think Jews knew this by heart…not to touch someone of God’s annointed.

 

[Stilldreamn]

JonNC;10502946:

Good point Jon.

From Matt 1:

19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

After considering divorcing Mary…and an angel comes and talks to you…how could one even think of becoming sexual with someone chosen by God? She obviously was one annointed by God for a holy purpose.

Re-reading the story of David and Saul, David has opportunities to slay Saul, but would not do it because Saul was still God’s annointed. The soldier who told David that Saul had died, and when David asks the soldier how, the soldier says he did it…David has that soldier killed for touching God’s annointed. I think Jews knew this by heart…not to touch someone of God’s annointed.

And the example of what happened when Uzzah touched the Ark of the Covenant - that would sort of put a damper on that, too.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Here is a conversation I have with a Lutheran friend (LCMC) just the other day about the PV of the Blessed Mother:

Friend: Mary was not a PV. She had many children and it says so in Scripture. She was only a virgin when she gave birth to Christ.

Me: So you believe that at the cross when Christ told St. John that Mary was his mother and he was her son, that Christ merely meant that St. John was her take care of her as his own mother and protect her?

Friend: Yes. Christ did not mean that Mary became the mother of us all. He simply meant that St. John was to “adopt” her as his own mother and care for her.

Me: See this is where a problem occurs for such belief. You state that Christ had brothers and sisters, but according to Scripture, none of them were present at the foot of cross. If Christ had brothers and sister, would they not take on the role that you say Christ gave to St. John? Would not one of his brothers protect and care for her?

Friend: He probably trusted John to do this rather than his brothers.

Me: That does not fit into the culture of the Jewish people of the times. If an elder brother dies, then the next in line takes charge of the family.

Friend: This conversation is pointless

 

[cheezey]

Well, we do have a way of knowing, or at least a reason to believe and that is because the Church, which is prevented from error by the Holy Spirit, has said so. We can believe this as much as we can believe that the canon of Scripture is the inspired word of God. Why? Because the Church said so. If you can’t trust the Church in these matters, then you really can trust anything it has taught.

Before I continue reading the whole thread, (or maybe I should, but I am an impatient one),
and regarding Mary’s Perpetual Virginity:
As one raised Protestant, her Perpetual Virginity made more sense but was not taught to me. I later learned from the CCC that this was the Church’s teaching. It confirmed what I had thought earlier. It is even more fitting that I am in RCIA. Historically, I would like to learn how the Council came to this conclusion that again, makes sense to me and is my belief. It was decided long afterwards, was it not?
As a Protestant, without the knowledge of the teaching of the Catholic Church, it never made sense to me why she was not mentioned more. And thanked much more profusely!!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Before I continue reading the whole thread, (or maybe I should, but I am an impatient one),
and regarding Mary’s Perpetual Virginity:
As one raised Protestant, her Perpetual Virginity made more sense but was not taught to me. I later learned from the CCC that this was the Church’s teaching. It confirmed what I had thought earlier. It is even more fitting that I am in RCIA. Historically, I would like to learn how the Council came to this conclusion that again, makes sense to me and is my belief. It was decided long afterwards, was it not?
As a Protestant, without the knowledge of the teaching of the Catholic Church, it never made sense to me why she was not mentioned more. And thanked much more profusely!!

Many Church Fathers made comments about her PV.

catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

 

[jrtrent]

How can all mean something in a passage but it doesn’t really mean something in another passage although another universal affirmative is used?

I think the only way to understand it is through Sacred Tradition. . .

And herein lies the humblest of lessons. To differ to the authority of those designated by Christ Himself to care for the faithful. . .

I mean how stubborn and stiffed neck do I have to be to not understand the miracle and the gift that Mary was to human kind?

I saw in posts above where you and TristanH already went through the difference between having inherited guilt and a sinful nature through Adam (which is true of all those groups you mentioned) and having actually sinned themselves.

Your point was that phrases like “all have sinned” may allow for some exceptions. We know of one, Jesus, from several references to it in the Bible (e.g., 1 Peter 2:22). Romans 9:11 at least strongly implies that unborn children haven’t yet had a chance to do anything good or evil. No such exception is mentioned about Mary except, as you said, in Sacred Tradition.

You believe the Roman Catholic Church to have been instituted by Christ and that it continues to teach infallibly. Therefore, you defer to its decisions, and that’ fine. Non-Catholics, of course, don’t share that belief about your church, and do not necessarily accept its decisions.

As I and others have mentioned in past posts, it is possible to recognize the miracle of the virgin birth, call Mary blessed, and honor her role as the chosen virgin and mother of Jesus without also believing in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption, or in any role such as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, or Advocatrix.

 

[KathleenGee]

Protestants cannot understand our veneration of Mary because of those Catholics who do not know her. Thus, there is little witness in the Anglo American Church…so much in need of chastity and spiritual poverty, but the great richness of Christ and the communion of saints.

It is safe to say that our Catholic faith has been protestantized in various factions here in the USA, and Pope Francis will be of great help to our culture.

I have to add here, that I witnessed the faith and devotion to Mary among European Latin missionaries, and experienced her presence on Christmas Day, 1974. I wrote about it back to my parish.

Protestants do not realize how much more spiritual and transcendent depth there is to the Catholic universal faith in including the the response to the New Testament – Christian lives within the communion of saints. So much they don’t have.

A priest told me the strongest Catholics are those who have devotion to Mary.

I don’t want to argue too much on Mary because it isn’t worth it. Just as I said, you need to see witness of devotion to her in practice…how much deeper and stronger she takes us to Jesus and the sacred mysteries that transcend into our daily lives.

The mundane ordinary life lived out with the companionship of Mary brings us into the depths of God. It was so good to see Pope Francis come before the Blessed Virgin at the end of his installation as Pope and to put all his concerns for the Church in Christ through her, the transmitter of grace, and the world’s greatest contemplative, Queen of Heaven and Earth, Queen of the Angels, Queen of the Apostles and saints, Queen of all Catholic mothers who have her feminine, maternal presence permeate our homes!

 

[pablope]

I You believe the Roman Catholic Church to have been instituted by Christ and that it continues to teach infallibly. Therefore, you defer to its decisions, and that’ fine. Non-Catholics, of course, don’t share that belief about your church, and do not necessarily accept its decisions…

Well…here is a dilemna…Non-Cs will not accept the teachings of the CC…but will accept another that goes against the teaching of the CC…why?

Non-Cs will say they do not believe in infallibility…but believes someone against the CC who is not infallible…why?

Non-Cs…say they do not accept the Pope…but accept another pope of their own liking…either themselves or someone who they accepted because they oppose the CC…why?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Protestants cannot understand our veneration of Mary because of those Catholics who do not know her. Thus, there is little witness in the Anglo American Church…so much in need of chastity and spiritual poverty, but the great richness of Christ and the communion of saints.

It is safe to say that our Catholic faith has been protestantized in various factions here in the USA, and Pope Francis will be of great help to our culture.

I have to add here, that I witnessed the faith and devotion to Mary among European Latin missionaries, and experienced her presence on Christmas Day, 1974. I wrote about it back to my parish.

Protestants do not realize how much more spiritual and transcendent depth there is to the Catholic universal faith in including the the response to the New Testament – Christian lives within the communion of saints. So much they don’t have.

A priest told me the strongest Catholics are those who have devotion to Mary.

I don’t want to argue too much on Mary because it isn’t worth it. Just as I said, you need to see witness of devotion to her in practice…how much deeper and stronger she takes us to Jesus and the sacred mysteries that transcend into our daily lives.

The mundane ordinary life lived out with the companionship of Mary brings us into the depths of God. It was so good to see Pope Francis come before the Blessed Virgin at the end of his installation as Pope and to put all his concerns for the Church in Christ through her, the transmitter of grace, and the world’s greatest contemplative, Queen of Heaven and Earth, Queen of the Angels, Queen of the Apostles and saints, Queen of all Catholic mothers who have her feminine, maternal presence permeate our homes!

Very well put.

 

[GaryTaylor]

:sad_yes:

 

[KathleenGee]

Pablope…this is what I am observing…no new theology that deepens the understanding of Christ…but more antagonistic reaction to ancient belief and practice.

As the apostolic Latin Church retains the Successor of Peter, the papacy has the keys to the Blood of Christ and the charisma of communion among pope, bishops and laity.

The Orthodox likewise have great devotion to Mary but refer to Mary’s Dormition. Tradition has it that those who witnessed Mary’s passing, could only say that it was shocking, nothing more.

The Latin rite tends to define and may be over define at times, such as in the case of defining limbo for unborn babies…but agrees with JPII, that we must trust the unbaptized unborn, and people of God to the mercy of God.

Again our dogmas of Mary were well thought out and critiqued, if you consider 1800 to 1954 years of scrupulous reflection anything to affirm finally Mary’s immaculate conception and her asssumption into heaven.

More so, the greater debate for me centers on the Protestants’ loss in not venerating our Blessed Mother and all her great helps in making us better Christians as well as her great protection over our lives, local churches, and countries.

 

[jrtrent]

Well…here is a dilemna…Non-Cs will not accept the teachings of the CC…but will accept another that goes against the teaching of the CC…why?

Non-Cs will say they do not believe in infallibility…but believes someone against the CC who is not infallible…why?

Non-Cs…say they do not accept the Pope…but accept another pope of their own liking…either themselves or someone who they accepted because they oppose the CC…why?

At least in my case, I think your emphasis is wrong. It’s not that I choose something based on its being against the CC or opposed to the CC, it’s simply a matter of choosing what seems most correct to me as I try, however imperfectly, to live a Christian life. Whether for good or ill, and whether I can justify it to someone else or not, I trust the Bible to be the word of God, and churches that base their teaching and practice on the Bible are easier for me to trust than churches that seem to either go against clear Biblical doctrine or to add some extra things that aren’t plainly taught in scripture. The CC has teachings about Mary, the Pope, indulgences, purgatory, and the nature of the priesthood and sacraments that I don’t find as credibly supportable as the teachings of some other churches. Even where various Protestant churches disagree on some pretty major issues (e.g., church government, the sacrament/ordinance debate, free will vs. predestination), I at least see where they’ve compiled credible Biblical support for their positions. Some Protestant churches I find plainly un-Biblical, such as those that ordain women or homosexuals, or that have embraced liberalism to the point of denying the inspiration of scripture or the miracles recorded in them.

 

[KathleenGee]

Appreciate your comment, JRtrent…

I would also request you reflect on the concept of the communion of the Church. The early Church Fathers, and theologians all down through time have always submitted their reflections to the Church.

Martin Luther attempted to communicate his concerns to the local theologian, but he refused to speak to him.

However, our beliefs and practice do not follow one man’s interpretation, but that of the communion of all faithful. I would hesitate leaving 2,000 years of tradition and interpretation to follow a certain concept. I mean, wouldn’t you think you would arrive at a more comprehensive and correct interpretation when you seek another perception other than your own? I do not trust my own perceptions. I have my blind spots.

 

[cheezey]

I think it mostly kind of depends on the person. I know many Catholics who do not have or care to have a desire for a prayer life with the Blessed Mother.

However, I know a few Protestant (Anglo Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian) that do have a devotion to our Mother.

(I was none of the above, and still wondered how she could not be more overtly appreciated and thanked. I mean, my goodness, look at what she did!!!)

 

[aidanbradypop]

It really shocked me when I realized how many Protestant denominations really do not think much about her.

Let’s look at what she went through

She was blessed by God to give birth to Christ (God in Human form…ie…Mother of God)

She raised Christ with many threats on her life.

Knowing one day that He would become the Lamd of God, she loved him only as a mother can.

She watched Him preach and heal the crowds (to her, this was her little boy. can you imagine what she must have felt)

Watched Christ beat to the bone for the sake of the people that were beating him (can you imagine if that were your son)

She watched as He walked to His death. (Just watch the Passion of the Christ and try not to cry)

She stood at the foot of the cross as He lifted His soul to God.

Now if we just take those things and leave out the IC,PV,AM…How can one not show her the respect and love? Everytime we sin, we nail another spike into her Son’s hand. Everytime we sin, we justify the death of her Son.

If your son died to save someone else and then that person turns around and does drugs and alcohol, sex with prostitutes and all the other sins…how would you feel about that? Would you want to make the person realize that your son’s death was so that he could survive and live on?

 

[cheezey]

It really shocked me when I realized how many Protestant denominations really do not think much about her.

Let’s look at what she went through

She was blessed by God to give birth to Christ (God in Human form…ie…Mother of God)

She raised Christ with many threats on her life.

Knowing one day that He would become the Lamd of God, she loved him only as a mother can.

She watched Him preach and heal the crowds (to her, this was her little boy. can you imagine what she must have felt)

Watched Christ beat to the bone for the sake of the people that were beating him (can you imagine if that were your son)

She watched as He walked to His death. (Just watch the Passion of the Christ and try not to cry)

She stood at the foot of the cross as He lifted His soul to God.

Now if we just take those things and leave out the IC,PV,AM…How can one not show her the respect and love? Everytime we sin, we nail another spike into her Son’s hand. Everytime we sin, we justify the death of her Son.

If your son died to save someone else and then that person turns around and does drugs and alcohol, sex with prostitutes and all the other sins…how would you feel about that? Would you want to make the person realize that your son’s death was so that he could survive and live on?

and think on this; many Protestants are Bible only - I was, it’s what I grew up with - and the Bible does not have that many passages about her, though they are certainly powerful ones, which is why I wanted more of her in my faith.