Protestant View of Mariology

[aidanbradypop]

One more thing then I must shower…

Why not ask the Mother of Christ to pray for us? We ask each other to send up a prayer on our behalf, so why is it a taboo for some Protestant to ask the Blessed Mother to do the same? Who else better to pray for us then the Mother of the Risen Lord?

 

[cheezey]

One more thing then I must shower…

Why not ask the Mother of Christ to pray for us? We ask each other to send up a prayer on our behalf, so why is it a taboo for some Protestant to ask the Blessed Mother to do the same? Who else better to pray for us then the Mother of the Risen Lord?

I"ve been prayin’ to her!!!

 

[aidanbradypop]

I"ve been prayin’ to her!!!

So do I! Cool club huh lol

 

[cheezey]

So do I! Cool club huh lol

It was a priest, whose faith perspective was/is very compelling for me, and long before I considered converting. He said (more eloquently!) we ask for prayers from each other, why not the one who gave us her Son? We think of our loved ones who have passed as people with whom we can still connect, why not Mary? And as the mother of God, she too is of God, to whom we pray, why not Mary?
So I thought, Yeah, why not?? He just confirmed what was vaguely tugging at me all along;
we can talk to Mary, too.

 

[aidanbradypop]

It was a priest, whose faith perspective was/is very compelling for me, and long before I considered converting. He said (more eloquently!) we ask for prayers from each other, why not the one who gave us her Son? We think of our loved ones who have passed as people with whom we can still connect, why not Mary? And as the mother of God, she too is of God, to whom we pray, why not Mary?
So I thought, Yeah, why not?? He just confirmed what was vaguely tugging at me all along;
we can talk to Mary, too.

Here is the wonderful part about it. Through His mother, I would bet you have become close to Christ.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Offdoodykcrn
Jesus did not say anything about women not being allowed to become priests.

And the Bible also does not say women could-does it? The Bible also makes no mention of being married inside a church-does it? The Bible also makes no mention of wedding rings-does it? The Bible also makes no mention of using organs,guitars,choirs,etc,etc-does it?

First tell me where the Bible teaches it must be said and taught from the bible-only?

 

[Nicea325]

Well, there would be Paul. Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

And 1st John 1:8 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

You could argue that they did not have a high educational level. (Depending upon your definition)

Now you can certainly come up with an argument to try and work around the above, (not talking about original sin, but personal sin, etc.) but you certainly can’t claim there is no theology that would possibly lead people to believe that yes, Mary was a sinner.

Nope! Weak argument. The term “all” would include Jesus Himself being the fact Jesus is 100% human-right?

Explain why God would sanctify the Ark of the Convenant,yet allow a sinner to conceive His begotten Son? That is rather odd to say the least.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, conceived in sin is different than sinning. Those poor souls murdered before birth are clearly incapable of sinning. However they would be conceived in original sin, and therefore damned, yes? This is what the Christ died to save us from. I honestly don’t know the state of those lost children. I can only pray for God’s mercy upon them and us.

Regarding Paul making a universal statement without exceptions, I’ll defer to someone who knows the Greek better than I do on what “all” means in this context. I know that some Hyper-Calvinists will argue that the word “all” in the passage where God desires all to be saved doesn’t really mean ‘all’ people. **Yet in this instance, it means everyone. **

The Day of Atonement passage in Leviticus mentions statues that are ‘forever’, however apparently that word doesn’t mean what we normally think it means. The same could be true for something simple as the word all.

So yes, as in many things with translations, all may mean all people, or it may mean all of some people or it may mean a group, or basically whatever you need it to so as to fit your argument

Thus,according to Calvinists, Jesus is a sinner,since “all” would mean everyone.

 

[cheezey]

Here is the wonderful part about it. Through His mother, I would bet you have become close to Christ.

Well, I was pretty close to Him before, sooooo…

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by Offdoodykcrn
Jesus did not say anything about women not being allowed to become priests.

But His actions certainly do not lead one to believe He had it in mind.

And the Bible also does not say women could-does it?

This is one of the times we should look to the practice of the early Church, as Tradition confirms what is rather obvious by Christ’s actions, if not by specific words.

Maybe you can confirm my thought that there are no women rabbis, either.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

One more thing then I must shower…

Why not ask the Mother of Christ to pray for us? We ask each other to send up a prayer on our behalf, so why is it a taboo for some Protestant to ask the Blessed Mother to do the same? Who else better to pray for us then the Mother of the Risen Lord?

From a Lutheran perspective, remembering that the Lutheran Reformers felt there was abuse regarding invocation of the saints, the confessions state that since there is no command, promise, or example for intercessory prayers of the saints in Heaven, one should not be obliged to believe in it. However, we know that the saints in Heaven do pray for us without ceasing, in a general way. Therefore, it seems appropriate that we should pray God that He listen to their prayers on our behalf, just as we say during the Prayer of the Church, “We ask you to hear us, oh Lord.”

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

But His actions certainly do not lead one to believe He had it in mind.

This is one of the times we should look to the practice of the early Church, as Tradition confirms what is rather obvious by Christ’s actions, if not by specific words.

Maybe you can confirm my thought that there are no women rabbis, either.

Jon

Hello my friend! You are absolutely correct. God only calls men to be priest. It is a calling,not a right.

 

[JonNC]

Hello my friend! You are absolutely correct. God only calls men to be priest. It is a calling,not a right.

And it is not the only calling. Just as there are many kinds of gifts, there are different callings.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

And it is not the only calling. Just as there are many kinds of gifts, there are different callings.

Jon

May you please elaborate. Thanks

 

[Porknpie]

From a Lutheran perspective, remembering that the Lutheran Reformers felt there was abuse regarding invocation of the saints, the confessions state that since there is no command, promise, or example for intercessory prayers of the saints in Heaven, one should not be obliged to believe in it. However, we know that the saints in Heaven do pray for us without ceasing, in a general way. Therefore, it seems appropriate that we should pray God that He listen to their prayers on our behalf, just as we say during the Prayer of the Church, “We ask you to hear us, oh Lord.”

Jon

Jon,

What are you thoughts on intercessory prayer in Revelation? Also Jeremiah below…?

Jeremiah 15
15 Then the Lord said to me: Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go! 2 And when they say to you, “Where shall we go?” you shall say to them: Thus says the Lord:

Those destined for pestilence, to pestilence,
and those destined for the sword, to the sword;
those destined for famine, to famine,
and those destined for captivity, to captivity.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I saw in posts above where you and TristanH already went through the difference between having inherited guilt and a sinful nature through Adam (which is true of all those groups you mentioned) and having actually sinned themselves.

Your point was that phrases like “all have sinned” may allow for some exceptions. We know of one, Jesus, from several references to it in the Bible (e.g., 1 Peter 2:22). Romans 9:11 at least strongly implies that unborn children haven’t yet had a chance to do anything good or evil. No such exception is mentioned about Mary except, as you said, in Sacred Tradition.

The problem is that knowing that there are clear exceptions to Paul’s universal affirmative statement, you seem to have given yourself to decide where the exception applies. I’m sorry but, isn’t this a bit arrogant? I mean, why would each and everyone of us should be able to give Scriptures the meaning we see fit to our own ideas and prejudices? Just like I have ideas, I inevitably have prejudices as well.

Who is going to keep me in check?
Who has the authority to keep me in check?

You know my answer. What I don’t know if you know or not is that I trust Jesus and the Holy Spirit to guide His Church into all truth and the fullness of the faith. Just like it is expressed in Scriptures. I see all of them as the fullness of truth and the Church serves our Lord.

You believe the Roman Catholic Church to have been instituted by Christ and that it continues to teach infallibly. Therefore, you defer to its decisions, and that’ fine. Non-Catholics, of course, don’t share that belief about your church, and do not necessarily accept its decisions.

Something that deeply saddens me. I was right where you are once.

As I and others have mentioned in past posts, it is possible to recognize the miracle of the virgin birth, call Mary blessed, and honor her role as the chosen virgin and mother of Jesus without also believing in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption, or in any role such as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, or Advocatrix.

This saddens me deeply as well.

It is impossible to truly understand the Blessed Virgin without Jesus. And She can only be understood with Jesus.

Thanks for your honesty.

Until we are all united as one.

Maran ‘athâ’!

Jose

 

[pablope]

I

As I and others have mentioned in past posts, it is possible to recognize the miracle of the virgin birth, call Mary blessed, and honor her role as the chosen virgin and mother of Jesus without also believing in the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption, or in any role such as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, or Advocatrix.

Just some thoughts and questions…is this ok with you or do you think this is God’s will?

Or are you just rationalizing that you cannot accept the Tradition of the Marian Dogmas…that is why you are saying it is ok and possible?

Did the Holy Spirit give this approval…to have different beliefs and it God is ok with it?

 

[TristanH]

Nope! Weak argument. The term “all” would include Jesus Himself being the fact Jesus is 100% human-right?

Explain why God would sanctify the Ark of the Convenant,yet allow a sinner to conceive His begotten Son? That is rather odd to say the least.

It is safe to say the Christ breaks the mold, being 100% human and 100% divine. I don’t believe that anyone claims that Mary is the same in that regard.

Interesting comments about sanctifying the Ark of the Covenant. From reading, it appears the Ark was made of normal materials, acacia wood covered in gold. It seems to have been sanctified by what was put into it, not prior to. Perhaps I’m missing a passage that states how the Ark was sanctified prior to putting in the Tablets.

 

[TristanH]

And where is that in the Bible?

How can all mean something in a passage but it doesn’t really mean something in another passage although another universal affirmative is used?

The perils of translation, mostly. This is why I mentioned deferring to someone who knew the Greek to clarify what “all” meant. The other examples I gave were simply to demonstrate how sometimes things are ‘lost in translation’.

I think the only way to understand it is through Sacred Tradition.

More important:

Who has the authority to tell the difference?

Christ’s Church or individual persons?

If a group of us, say 125 each grab a Bible and we all can’t agree on what it means… What do you think we are going to do to the Body of Christ? Divide it?

And herein lies the humblest of lessons. To differ to the authority of those designated by Christ Himself to care for the faithful.

Well, there’s always learning Greek and Hebrew for biblical exegesis

As far as authority goes, well, that’s the whole rub between Roman Catholics and others to varying degrees isn’t it?

The most ironic thing is that some people ask Catholics about where is the BV Mary devotion in the Bible? But are unable to ask their Pastors where is that tithing mandated in the New Testament? or When did God say that it’s ok to have His Book as authority over His Church? The same Church that received and protected His book. The same Church that understands the mysteries of the Word of God. The same Church that understands the role of our Lord’s earthly Mother. Think about that for a second… God’s Mom in the flesh… Do you not think that Mom is extraordinary from all others? It just blows me away, who amongst ALL women was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God? Mary.

Just a note: Any protestant who says their church relies on scripture alone I would say if they looked at it clear enough they would find more than a little bit of tradition involved.

That’s always a fun late night topic of conversation. Did Mary have free will to say no? If so, would someone else have been chosen? If God foresaw that Mary would say yes, can you really say she had a choice?

I mean how stubborn and stiffed neck do I have to be to not understand the miracle and the gift that Mary was to human kind?

Know that there is quite a gulf between not seeing it necessary for her to be born with out sin (and so being purified at some later point) and not understanding the gift Mary was to us all.

 

[TristanH]

Friend: He probably trusted John to do this rather than his brothers.

Me: That does not fit into the culture of the Jewish people of the times. If an elder brother dies, then the next in line takes charge of the family.

See, this line of thought for me is the one that pushed me over the edge to believing perpetual virginity. It’s a very reasonable line of thought.