Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[whatistrue]

And there are 240 some odd Catholic denominations worldwide.

Yeah, I’ll need a reference for that. There are 24 sui iuris Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. That is what it means to be Catholic (note the capital C). The others are not denominations of Catholic, but may use the word in their name fraudulently. Granted there may be some groups who use the Lutheran name that no other Lutheran group would recognize as such, but who has the authority to say no to them?

 

[JonNC]

Thank you.

Again, the Reformation era did not consist of one single movement that divided. Zwingli and Luther were never of the same communion (except maybe Catholic). Their differences are well documented.

Do you agree with, say, Baptist theology?
No?
Neither do I.
What’s the difference? You’re Catholic and I’m Lutheran and we both disagree with Baptist teachings.

Why are you under the expectation that they would? Division in the Church is almost as old as the Church.

Communicated by whom? There is no vague general consensus because Protestant is not now nor had it ever been anything more than a convenient label. It doesn’t even come from a protest against Catholic Church teaching. It was a formal protest against civil authorities.

 

[JonNC]

Yeah, I’ll need a reference for that. There are 24 sui iuris Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

It is the same faulty logic that came up with the ludicrous 30,000 denominations nonsense.

That is what it means to be Catholic (note the capital C).

I consider myself Evangelical Catholic (capital C).

Granted there may be some groups who use the Lutheran name that no other Lutheran group would recognize as such, but who has the authority to say no to them?

Who has the authority to say no to those female priests? Pope Francis? That doesn’t stop them.

 

[dochawk]

They also worship saints and Mary the Mother of God.

wait, what???


Neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship either Mary or the saints.

Fasting in Eastern Orthodoxy is much stricter than in Eastern Catholicism.

That varies entirely by EC jurisdiction.

Mine (Pittsburgh) is indeed the fasting wimp of the Eastern world, not much stricter than the RCC, while the Melkites, for example, AFAIK sill have the full ancient fast, as do some others.

 

[AlNg]

Mine (Pittsburgh) is indeed the fasting wimp of the Eastern world, not much stricter than the RCC

That is what i was trying to say. Some EC are quite lenient with fasting as compared to EO. Do you know specifically of EC which hold to the EO fasting as described in Orthodoxwiki?

Extended fasting periods​

There are four main periods of extended fasting:

1. The Great Lent is the period of six weeks preceding Holy Week in anticipation of the Feast of Feasts, Pascha, followed by the fasting of Holy Week. Great Lent is preceded by the Meatfast , that starts on the Monday after the Sunday of the Last Judgment through Cheesefare Sunday.
2. The Nativity Fast (or Advent; also called St. Philip’s Fast, coming immediately after his feast on November 14), is the period from November 15 to December 24 (forty days) in anticipation of Christmas, the Festival of the Nativity of the Savior.
3. The Apostles’ Fast is the period from the Monday after All Saints (a variable feast) to the feast day of Ss. Peter and Paul on June 29.
4. The Dormition Fast is the period of the first two weeks of August in anticipation of the feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos.

Fasting days​

• Eve of Theophany (January 5)
• Beheading of St. John the Baptist (August 29)
• Elevation of the Holy Cross (September 14)
• All Wednesdays, except for Fast-Free Weeks, in remembrance of the betrayal of Christ by Judas Iscariot.
• All Fridays, except for Fast-Free Weeks, in remembrance of Christ’s Crucifixion.

Regular fasting​

Orthodox Christians also regularly fast on Wednesdays and Fridays to commemorate, respectively, Christ’s betrayal by Judas Iscariot and His Crucifixion.

 

[BlueKumul]

Venerate… This night I woke up scared after a nightmare and asked the archangel Michael for help. Does this count as veneration, or worship?

 

[twf]

Veneration - and asking his intercession. Very proper .

People are getting their backs up on this thread, because they’re used to dealing with Protestants and it’s a sensitive topic, but the truth is that Catholics and the Orthodox DO worship Mary and the saints…in the older sense of the term. Here in Canada we still address mayors as “your worship”. But in contemporary English the word worship has a connotation of adoration, which is reserved only for God. The divine worship we owe God involves sacrifice and is centred around the Eucharist. We honour Mary and the saints. Praise them even, but never adore them in the sense that we adore God.
In Latin we call the worship due only to God “Latria”. Hyperdulia is the unique honour we give to Our Lady. Dulia is the honour we owe to all the angels and saints.

 

[whatistrue]

It is the same faulty logic that came up with the ludicrous 30,000 denominations nonsense.

Which, you may note, I did not claim. So are you now saying that your claim was known to be false when made?

I consider myself Evangelical Catholic (capital C).

You can consider yourself a Martian for all I care, but you yourself say you are not a member of the Catholic Church, nor does the Catholic Church claim that you are.

That doesn’t stop them.

It does in Churches in communion with Pope Francis, current Bishop of Rome.

 

[JonNC]

Which, you may note, I did not claim. So are you now saying that your claim was known to be false when made?

Of course the entire 30,000 thing is false, and it is just as false to misrepresent the differences in Lutheran polity to division.

you yourself say you are not a member of the Catholic Church

I am not a member of the Catholic Church in communion with the pope, but that is not the limit to His Church Catholic.

It does in Churches in communion with Pope Francis, current Bishop of Rome.

They still claim to be “Roman” Catholic. If it is your view that they who claim to be “Roman” Catholic but don’t abide by the Catholic Catechism are not really Catholic, it seems charitable to recognize that there are some who claim to be Lutheran but don’t abide by the Lutheran confessions.

 

[whatistrue]

it seems charitable to recognize that there are some who claim to be Lutheran but don’t abide by the Lutheran confessions.

Isn’t that what my question was all about in the first place? You mentioned the confessions in a manner that implied they were equivalent to the Magisterium, and I asked how many of the groups that call themselves Lutheran follow them. So where is the lack of recognition?

 

[JonNC]

Isn’t that what my question was all about in the first place? You mentioned the confessions in a manner that implied they were equivalent to the Magisterium,

No, more comparable to the Catholic Catechism. Though, again, Lutheran polity is not the same as Catholic polity.

I asked how many of the groups that call themselves Lutheran follow them.

No, you asked about Lutheran “denominations”. But be that as it may, there are essentially two views of the confessions among Lutherans: one is a quia subscription, the other a quatenus subscription.
A quia subscription is the acceptance of the doctrines in the confessions are entirely a right reflection of scripture.
A Quatenus subscription is an acceptance of the doctrines in the confessions insofar as they are a right reflection of scripture.
Where this has caused the most concerning differences is reflective of societal progressivism. By that I mean quatenus subscription Lutherans are open to female clergy while quia subscription Lutherans are not.
Broadly, the two groups are represented by two worldwide organizations: Lutheran World Federation, mainly quatenus subscription synods and International Lutheran Council, primarily quia subscription (Confessional Lutherans).

 

[whatistrue]

No, you asked about Lutheran “denominations”.

So denominations are not groups? Is this another quibble like deflecting by bringing up the 30,000 protestant denomination thing when I never mentioned or referred to it, and then saying I misrepresented something that I did not on that basis? No, I will not play that game. Muting thread.

 

[JonNC]

So denominations are not groups?

Not in this sense. Plus, the word denomination is sometimes Used here as a pejorative.

Is this another quibble like deflecting by bringing up the 30,000 protestant denomination thing when I never mentioned or referred to it, and then saying I misrepresented something that I did not on that basis? No, I will not play that game. Muting thread.

You accuse me of deflecting then mute the thread?
There we are. Sorry I didn’t allow you your narrative without pushing back.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes, that’s veneration. You don’t adore the archangel. We have to be careful in our descriptions as many Protestants already wrongly believe we worship saints. So if you flat out say it, it sounds terrible and affirms for them what is not true for 99% of us.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Who is closer to Catholicism?

What do you mean by closer?

Closer as in, we Orthodox share a thousand years of history with the Catholic Church, have the seven mysteries/sacraments, Apostolic Succession, dogmas (apart from Immaculate Conception of Mary, Papal Supremacy and the Assumption of Mary), liturgy, etc.

Or closer as in worldview?

 

[dochawk]

o you know specifically of EC which hold to the EO fasting as described in Orthodoxwiki?

AFAIK, we all have all of those seasons/days. It is rather the severity that varies.

Pittsburgh, for example, prescribes no meat (by the Roman notion, not the eastern) on W and F of Lent, strict (no dairy or meat, either) on the Monday when it begins and Good Friday), and abstaining from meat most Friday.

At the other end, I believe the Melkites still keep all of the old rules (but may have relaxed the use of olive oil, which no longer comes in animal skins; I’m not sure)

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

Not that I can prove it to anyone, but I KNOW that both Catholics and Orthodox have the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I’ve NEVER experienced that in any Protestant, Evangelical, or non-denominational church. So, that being said, absolutely, the Orthodox and the Catholics are closer.

 

[BlueKumul]

So who’s closer in worldview?

Some Catholics have said that Puritans or Evangelicals are closer to Judaism in worldview than to Catholicism. Then the Orthodox are said to have Gnostic influences.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

One huge thousand year old difference.

Well quite amazingly, Eastern Catholics are usually somewhat closer to Eastern Orthodoxy than 1K years (other than minor exceptions they came into communion during of after Reformation). Western Orthodox were formed quite recently, but let’s argue that most of them come from Protestantism hence again, differences mostly go to Reformation (not further back).

Then the Orthodox are said to have Gnostic influences.

Orthodox with Gnostic influence? I am totally not denying possibility of that, but it somehow sounds quite interesting to me because by the time Gnostics were condemned, Great Schism hasn’t happened yet. I would say that some Protestants went into some Gnostic territory from my view (but probably not mainstream ones).

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Every Catholic can ask for three sacraments: penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick from a minister from any Eastern Church.

If you mean Eastern Church as Eastern Catholic Church, then by all means. If you mean Eastern Orthodox Church this gets tricky. There needs to be very good reason, and then Orthodox Church officially would never grant Sacraments to those outside their communion (of course you may find Priests, Bishops and even Autocephalous Churches that will… but I don’t think that is allowed officially). Only real exception to that rule is intercommunion between some Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches and even that is not universal.