Protestant vs Orthodox - who's closer?

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Some Catholics have said that Puritans or Evangelicals are closer to Judaism in worldview than to Catholicism.

I could agree with that, although Judaism was inherently sacramental (by which I mean that Divine Grace is communicated via physical means and ritual actions), while Puritans and Evangelicals mostly discarded a sacramental worldview.

Then the Orthodox are said to have Gnostic influences.

If by “Gnostic influences” you are referring to the “Gnosis” that St. Basil the Great refers to passed down by oral and ritual tradition from the apostles to their successors in the episcopate, I would say that their is a confusion between Gnostics (the sect that says matter is evil and that there are secret teachings in the Scriptures that only Gnostics have preserved, etc) and the Sacred/Holy Tradition passed down orally by the Apostles to their successors, which mainly consisted of ritual prayers that have since been codified into the liturgical life of the Church.

Is that the “Gnostic influences” you are referring to?

 

[BlueKumul]

This gnostic influence appears to be saying that matter is evil. I’ve heard that in tzarist Russia peasants were always referred to as “souls” to avoid acknowledging that they are men or women, i.e. that they have male or female physical bodies.

Sounds close to our current “gender” heresy, doesn’t it?

 

[twf]

This “Catholics and Protestants are two sides of the same coin” idea is popular in some Orthodox circles. It is not, however, universally shared by the Orthodox. A distant second cousin-ish of mine, who is a Protestant convert to Orthodoxy and now a priest, tried to sell me on this notion. I rejected it then and I reject it now.
Yes, when we look at mainline Protestantism and other more traditional expressions of Protestantism, there is a certain common heritage in terms of theological constructs. A common example would be justification. Catholics and Protestants have very different definitions of justification, but the Orthodox say “what the heck do you mean by justification?” By this some Orthodox conclude that Catholics and Protestants are closer than Orthodox and Catholics.

Nonsense. Catholics and Protestants may share a language… but the core, the substance of the faith is closer between Catholics and Orthodox. Theological constructs aside, we Catholics, like the Orthodox, prostrate before the living, abiding, real, true presence of Christ on the altar, while honouring the Mother of God. That’s all that matters in the end.
Another cousin of mine, who is also a Protestant convert to Orthodoxy and now a monastic novice, agrees with me - Catholicism and Orthodoxy share a bond that simply isn’t there with Protestantism.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Catholicism and Orthodoxy share a bond that simply isn’t there with Protestantism.

That is the crux of the matter.

Our language is sometimes similar to Protestants as they(knowingly or unknowingly) derive theological constructs from some of the same sources we do (mainly Augustine) But the focus and center of our Mass is not a guy talking…it’s Jesus in the Eucharist and Gospel. Same for Orthodoxy…

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Main thing Protestants share with Latin Catholics is that they adhere to Western Christianity- they use Western terminology, they use Western approach. This is opposite of Eastern approach and Eastern terminology.

However, at the core of Faith itself, no Protestants are closer to Catholics than Orthodox are. Terminology differs but essence does not. It isn’t just about Eucharist… it’s about many more things such as “once saved always saved” stuff, Church canons, Apostolic Succession, infallibility of the Church (Protestants tend to accept 7 Ecumenical Councils but because they are true, not necessarily because they would be infallible) , view on Sacred Tradition and many more…

In the end if you find a difference between Orthodox and Catholicism other than which words do we use, then that difference we also have with Protestants.

Also if you understand that Eastern Catholicism isn’t offshoot of Latin Catholicism but authentic Catholicism, then one can’t even use the “Western vs Eastern” point. Catholic Church isn’t Western. It is Universal. There are Catholics that would hold Orthodox theology (not necessarily ecclesiology) as well as terminology and be fully Catholic.

In other words with Orthodoxy, we Catholics (Eastern + Western) differ in ecclesiology only. Is there any Protestant Church that shares Catholic ecclesiology? I highly doubt so.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

This is not an Orthodox thing/teaching. At all. Orthodox Christianity is anti-gnostic.

 

[JonNC]

Not that I can prove it to anyone, but I KNOW that both Catholics and Orthodox have the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I’ve NEVER experienced that in any Protestant, Evangelical, or non-denominational church.

I have. In both Lutheran and Anglican settings.
Catholic disagreement notwithstanding.

 

[twf]

But not at the local Pentecostal church… and that’s what is usually being pictured when people use the term “Protestant” in these threads. To be fair, high church Anglicans would typically reject the Protestant label completely.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

But not at the local Pentecostal church… and that’s what is usually being pictured when people use the term “Protestant” in these threads.

Well because my local Protestants are mostly Lutherans, they are what I think of when someone says “Protestants”. Them, or some typical non-denominational Churches I guess.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

This gnostic influence appears to be saying that matter is evil. I’ve heard that in tzarist Russia peasants were always referred to as “souls” to avoid acknowledging that they are men or women, i.e. that they have male or female physical bodies.

Forgive me, but where are you getting these wild theories? Besides, Tsarist Russia is not to be confused with the Russian Orthodox Church, which, although the latter was like the soul and the former the body, they are separate entities.The Orthodox preach the Incarnate Word, the deification of matter by uncreated Divine Energies (which are God), the union of the human with the Divine, the goodness of Creation, etc. We are so fully incarnational that we believe that Christ is fully incarnate in His humanity sitting at the right hand of the Father in Heaven now and for all eternity. Nowhere does the Orthodox Church preach anything close to the Gnostic, or gender heresy.

I also find it very hard to believe that Tsarist Russia would refer to peasants as “souls” to avoid acknowledging male or female, methinks it would be for the spiritual reason of highlighting the highest and most important aspect of the human being, his immortal soul, for the flesh (which we believe to be fallen, but good) is passing away, but the soul is eternal, where after death and the judgment it shall be re-united to a resurrected body that shall also be eternal, and shall enter either into eternal bliss with the Lord in paradise or eternal suffering with the damned in hell.

 

[BlueKumul]

So maybe this was done to acknowledge that the peasants are humans too… A benevolent reason.

Good to know that Orthodoxy opposes gnosticism

 

[Kmon23]

Eastern Orthodox can not receive communion from our Churches except in extreme circumstances and necessity.

This is not true. Eastern Orthodox are allowed to receive communion in a Catholic Church assuming they are properly disposed (recognize the real presence of Catholic communion, no mortal sins, preparation for communion). Only Protestants would need to convert or need to be in extreme situations to licitly receive.

Can. 844
§3. **Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed.

Eastern Orthodox has their own Pope.

We have the Ecumenical Patriarch and we have the Greek Patriarch (“Pope”) of Alexandria.
Orthodox don’t have a Pope in the way Catholics do.

 

[EugeneCharles]

Hi Kmon23!
Yes I’d actually asked my father about that matter and while he was at Greece he received a communion in one of its church so I totally agree with you! I had misunderstood the book which I have read Thanks for that! And for your second message I totally agree with that I had also read it on a book after doing a research. Thank you!

 

[EugeneCharles]

Good day BlueKumul!
As Catholics we do not worship Mary or saints but rather venerate them or give honor to them. There are Orthodox Churches who are named as Catholic or Universal Churches and as far as I know both of them venerate saints and Mama Mary but other Protestant denominations doesn’t. I think they are both closer because they came from the Catholic Church.The Eastern Orthodox and Protestant Churches had both participated in Vatican Council II and serve as internal observers. For your information Protestant can not receive communion from our Churches except in extreme circumstances and necessity. While Orthodox can receive I researched about this matter again and I also encountered with what Kmon23 had said Orthodox have their Ecumenical Patriarch and in Alexandria they have their Greek Patriarch. So it depends because Protestants are known as “Catholics without Pope” while Eastern Orthodox has some difference such as the way of sign of the cross.

 

[AlNg]

In other words with Orthodoxy, we Catholics (Eastern + Western) differ in ecclesiology only.

If Catholics are so close to Orthodox, why have they chosen to remain separate from the Orthodox Church for one thousand years ? Since Catholics believe that there is so little difference between them and the Orthodox should they not heed the message of Jesus: that Catholics and Orthodox may be one as we read in john 17: 21?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If Catholics are so close to Orthodox, why have they chosen to remain separate from the Orthodox Church for one thousand years ?

Because of that one simple difference of Papal Primacy and inerrancy of Rome being professed in Catholic Church.

 

[AlNg]

Because of that one simple difference of Papal Primacy and inerrancy of Rome being professed in Catholic Church.

Was papal infallibility a universal doctrine in the whole Church, East and West in the first few centuries of the Church? I see some support for a papal primacy of sorts, but I don’t see any Church Father or Church document before 900 AD saying that the Pope of Rome was infallible when speaking ex cathedra? Why not go back to the early teachings before 900 AD since dogma never changes. Why not obey the words of Jesus that all may be one?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Why not go back to the early teachings before 900 AD since dogma never changes. Why not obey the words of Jesus that all may be one?

Arians would say same about Trinity. “Where is Trinity explicitly in the Bible? Why not just abandon doctrine of Trinity and become one as our Lord prayed?”

Was papal infallibility a universal doctrine in the whole Church, East and West in the first few centuries of the Church?

Inerrancy of Rome was. Roman Faith was held to be immaculate and incorruptible. St. George the Hagiorite professed just that- and he is Saint in Orthodox Church but not Catholic Church. He was Georgian Monk who professed inerrancy of Rome in front of Emperor and Patriarch Michael. Pope St. Gregory also said he can render Eastern synods null and void with strike of a pen. East didn’t deny it. He said Rome can judge all Bishops even Patriarch of Constantinople. Again, no denial.

This isn’t thread for this kind of discussion by the way.

 

[AlNg]

This isn’t thread for this kind of discussion by the way.

You are claiming that the Orthodox is closer to Catholicism than Protestantism. This is disputed by some who will say that Protestants are something of a reflection of Catholicism as Protestantism claims to have reformed western Catholicism. Still, Protestants and Catholics share beliefs that Orthodox would not agree with such as:
The filioque. AFAIK, most Protestants retain the filioque in the creed, as do western Catholics.
The use of unleavened bread. AFAIK, Protestants and Catholic believe that it is OK to use either unleavened or leavened bread. However, an Eastern Orthodox Church Council has condemned the use of unleavened bread.
The date of Easter. Protestants and Catholics share the same date of Easter, which differs from the Orthodox
The Catholics did not define papal infallibility until hundreds of years later after their papal legate excommunicated Michael Cerularius and his followers in 1054. So they became more distant from the Orthodox Church because of Vatican I. At that time Catholics objected to the Orthodox married clergy, but now they have accepted the Orthodox position that it is possible to have a married clergy although Catholics still believe that the celibate clergy has benefits.
Catholics and Protestants are also much closer on the question of fasting requirements and the use of musical instruments in church services. Orthodox have stricter fasting requirements and generally do not use musical instruments in church services, except perhaps for bells. Catholics and Protestants do not object to using the guitar and electronic organ during church services.
Catholics and Protestants allow communion in the hand. The Orthodox do not.
Further, if Catholics are so close to Orthodox, why did they steal, smash, and ruin so many precious Orthodox religious objects during the fourth crusade?

Arians would say same about Trinity.

This is irrelevant because Arianism is not close to Catholicism, but the claim is that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism are close?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The date of Easter. Protestants and Catholics share the same date of Easter, which differs from the Orthodox

This isn’t true. Some Eastern Catholics use Orthodox version so that’s not really a difference.

At that time Catholics objected to the Orthodox married clergy

Could you provide your source?

AFAIK, most Protestants retain the filioque in the creed, as do western Catholics.

and most Eastern Catholics don’t.

The Catholics did not define papal infallibility

Which isn’t related to this thread because Protestants obviously don’t believe in Papal Infallibility…

Catholics and Protestants are also much closer on the question of fasting requirements and the use of musical instruments in church services.

When it comes to describing Protestant fasting one can always say Catholics are closer because they are softer than Orthodoxy in this regard- but that does not make it comparable.

Further, if Catholics are so close to Orthodox, why did they steal, smash, and ruin so many precious Orthodox religious objects during the fourth crusade?

What? What does this have to do with being closer? Fourth Crusade was done by excommunicated people already so you can’t judge Catholic Church by their actions. And again this is completely unrelated.

This is irrelevant because Arianism is not close to Catholicism

Closer than Buddhism though.

but the claim is that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism are close?

Yes. Valid orders, theological views on Eucharist, Sacraments, Liturgy (Eastern Catholic Liturgy is identical to Orthodox one), Theology (Eastern Catholic theology is identical to Orthodox one perhaps except some polemics like Filioque but still closer than Protestant), having multiple Rites (Western Orthodoxy says hello), recognizing infallibility of Ecumenical Councils (not agreeing upon which ones, sure but closer than Protestant notion that Councils were correct but not infallible). Pretty much anything except Papal Primacy and acceptance of Latin Doctrine is same in Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. We are talking about Catholic Church not Latin Church.