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NotWorthy
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Yes, a prohibition against the Images of Worship (Idols). Who said a statue of Mary, Jesus, Joseph, or the rest of the gang are worshipped? They are just images?
Notworthy
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Notworthy
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NotWorthy
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That’s why we use Alabaster… Just joking!
Notworthy
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SolaChristo
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What is noteworthy is that God commanded the making of the of the angels on the arc.
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beckyann2597
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Which denomination are you? I only ask so I have a better idea of your history, traditions, theology…
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NotWorthy
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Correct! And God wouldn’t contradict Himself and confuse all His little creations now, would He? No, because he prohibited the carven of Idols, not statues meant to remind us of what we could be, if we only followed His Will.
Notworthy - (but appreciative of the pun! Good Job!)
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Troy_Niems
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Thank you all for your insights!
I would have to say that I don’t agree with the belief of the 1st Commandment includes the stations being displayed as statues, stained glass, or any other piece of art. To me its not an issue of disobeying the 1st commandment or Exodus 20:23, but one of focus and priority. We should all be able to agree that Christ(God) is our highest priority.
I do, however, feel uncomfortable with large pieces of art that don’t depict events directly surrounding Christ or that aren’t Christ centered.(a large statue of a single saint for example) I realize its important to keep history of those individuals that recieved sainthood or those that are historically important, but I wouldn’t like to see them appear larger than Christ. If someone visited one of our churches/parishes who had never heard of God or any of the images displayed within it, who would they conclude is most important based souly on what they saw? Hopefully not the large statue of a saint(for example) on the outside! My point is still the same: I would love to see more reverence and respect shown.
Again, thank you for your posts!
By His grace alone,
Troy
I would have to say that I don’t agree with the belief of the 1st Commandment includes the stations being displayed as statues, stained glass, or any other piece of art. To me its not an issue of disobeying the 1st commandment or Exodus 20:23, but one of focus and priority. We should all be able to agree that Christ(God) is our highest priority.
I do, however, feel uncomfortable with large pieces of art that don’t depict events directly surrounding Christ or that aren’t Christ centered.(a large statue of a single saint for example) I realize its important to keep history of those individuals that recieved sainthood or those that are historically important, but I wouldn’t like to see them appear larger than Christ. If someone visited one of our churches/parishes who had never heard of God or any of the images displayed within it, who would they conclude is most important based souly on what they saw? Hopefully not the large statue of a saint(for example) on the outside! My point is still the same: I would love to see more reverence and respect shown.
Again, thank you for your posts!
By His grace alone,
Troy
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SolaChristo
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I cant buy into this arguement that Catholics make on many of their positions.
The children of Isreal who saw the great miracles of God in their deliveance from Egypt and physically saw His presence not only on the mountain but also in the cloud by day and pillar of fire at night were very corrupt. It is the nature of our enemy to corrupt us as quickly as possible.
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NotWorthy
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As I posted elsewhere,
To make the claim that the Church went corrupt even in the first generation is to say that, when Christ said, “Upon You (Peter) I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it”, He would have been wrong! This would make the bible in error and Christ in error. And the whole house would come crumbling down…
Notworthy
To make the claim that the Church went corrupt even in the first generation is to say that, when Christ said, “Upon You (Peter) I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it”, He would have been wrong! This would make the bible in error and Christ in error. And the whole house would come crumbling down…
Notworthy
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deb1
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If you are going to quote a biblical commandment then please quote the whole commandment. It says(and I am parphrasing because I am too lazy to walk across the room and get my bible) that we are not to make graven images and then worship them.
Catholics do not worship these images. God ordered that the Hebrews make images for the ark of convenant and the inside of his temple. Even Moses’ staff, if I am not mistaken, had a snake upon it. Why would God order something that was sinful?
If a person believes that this commandment was against all images then he would have to rid himself of all pictures, paintings, etc. I think that a lot of protestants get around this by assuming that graven images are not allowed only in the church but that in their houses are fine. Yet, no where in those verses does it say graven images are not allowed in God’s house but are allowed in the outside world. So, if you think the verse is a ban against any statue etc within the church then logic follows that you should do as the muslims and not have any representations of anything at all.
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SolaChristo
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**1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. **
Perhaps what is most disturbing to Protestants is the shrines that are made around the statues with lighted candles etc etc
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SolaChristo
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Im not here to change anyones mind but was asked a question why it was done in a certain manner. Do I believe its idolitry? Yes.
Am I going try and convince you to my way of thinking? No. I am just explaining why I believe the way I do.
Am I going try and convince you to my way of thinking? No. I am just explaining why I believe the way I do.
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smelton
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NotWorthy, Don’t you think that any time man is involved with something that God has ordained it is corrupted with sin from the man? You don’t think that the church was or is perfect do you? Surely you see that where man is involved that sin will corrupt. It’s not the way God inteded it but he gives us free choice and we mess up the plan.
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smelton
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As to the original question, why don’t protestants use these things, I would offer that it is possible that they don’t feel they are necessary. I can’t offer anyone else’s reasoning but being a protestant myself I can offer my understanding. I don’t think that those things the Catholic faith use are evil or sending people straight to hell. I just don’t feel they are necessary to have a relationship with Christ. I’m sure they, like anything else, can be useful and also could be a hinderence. It’s about your understanding that they are to lead you to worship Jesus that they themselves are not important but the direction they lead you is.
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puzzleannie
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Troy Niems:
It was not until the Puritan revolution however that the wholesale destruction of sacred sites began, and for that you would need a historical-psychological study of what was driving the Puritans.
at least in England the reason was plain old fashioned lust and greed. Henry VIII wanted a new wife, the pope wouldn’t let him divorce the old one, so he started his own church with himself as its head so he could do anything he wished. naturally anyone who disagreed was eliminated. Not to mention that he had virtually bankrupted the country and saw the wealth of the Church as a handy source for more dough and stuff. His nobles were also quick to see the benefits of usurping any convent, church or monastery on their lands, driving off the monks, and diverting those incomes to their personal pockets, and making all the artistic wealth of those statues, windows, carvings, gilded altars, and sacramental plate their personal private possessions.
It was not until the Puritan revolution however that the wholesale destruction of sacred sites began, and for that you would need a historical-psychological study of what was driving the Puritans.
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mercygate
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And we appreciate that!
We are coming from different mind-sets here. A Catholic would not say “Do I believe its *(sic) *idolitry (sic).” A Catholic would ask: This appears to be idolatry; what does the Church actually teach?
To a Catholic, “my way of thinking” is not a credible warrant. In this case, from our perspective, your “way of thinking” actually derives from an interpretation of only one half of one verse of the Bible as promulgated by your tradition.
The Church formally teaches that Catholics are to worship nothing or no one other than God. When she specifically delineates her position concerning the appropriate use of images and supports it from Scripture and via Sacred Tradition enlivened by the Holy Spirit coming down to us through two millennia, we tend to confide more in the Church than in any personal “way of thinking” – including our own.
This can take some getting used to, as it requires a certain docility which many Protestants find repugnant. But honestly, as a convert, though perhaps not the brightest bulb in the marquee, I have never seen an argument against a teaching of the Church that could hold up for 30 seconds when subjected to the power of Catholic theology.
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NotWorthy
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Absolutely correct! Man will corrupt things, and hence, many of our leaders have been corrupt, vile, and evil. No organization that has gone on for very long can truly deny that!
But, whereas the members of the church have been at time corrupt, the church teachings have been pure. Why do I believe that? Because I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (Wow, bet you thought you’d never hear a Catholic say that. You’d be surprised!), and in the Bible Jesus told us that He would send the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, to guide us.
This prevents the church from teaching in error. Have you ever wondered why the church has never changed its mind on Contraception, as every other Christian Faith has done over the last 80 years? Because we can’t! Women Priests? We can’t! Acceptance of homosexuality? We can’t!
This is why I love my Church so very much!
God Bless,
Notworthy
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mercygate
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SolaChristo said:
I suppose you are correct about that – being disturbing to Protestants, that is.
In reading the Commandment, however, the qualifier that strikes me is the phrase “make for yourself” – we do not “make for ourselves” objects of worship. No, no, no.
The images venerated in Catholic churches (and homes) are never animals or plants. They are always *human *in respect of the Incarnation: primarily images of Our Lord, of course; but because the saints are reflections of the Christ-life as lived out by individuals, who now live fully in him, we allow images of the saints.
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edward_george
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The thing is, whether a Saint lived in the first century or the twenty-first century, his reason for being a Saint is still the same: Christ. When we look upon images of those people who have so perfectly imitated Christ as to be counted among his elect, we find good examples for living in the way in which Christ would have wanted us to. As he said to his Apostles, “Whoever hears you, hears me.” The greatest testimony to Christ’s message is in his holy ones. By learning about the saints we learn about the greater reason why they are saints–Christ’s redeeming grace. They wouldn’t be saints without Christ. In short, veneration of saints is very Christ-centered.
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smelton
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What scripture would you use to support your statement that the Holy Spirit prevents the church from making errors?
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