Protestant ways

[mercygate]

smelton:

I would 100 percent agree that the Spirit should guide the church and that it is the will of God for that to happen. I don’t have any issue with that at all. I guess in my protestant brain I stuggle to equate perfection and the church. I have no trouble equating perfection and Christ. I have no trouble saying that scripture is the word of God. I just struggle with the concept that the churches word as an organization is the word of God. 2 Tim 3:16-17 is a verse that I think would disqualify your statement about the bible not teaching about every moral issue. Application of the word. I don’t feel that we need the church to tell us what is truth. I believe that is why God inspired the NT writers. I have the truth, God’s word. I’m not sure what biblically qualifies an organization to dictate truth. I agree that with time comes wisdom but also that sometimes with time comes tradition that is not rooted in scripture. I also agree that we need the church, just not to dictate the truth. Does that make sense?

It wouldn’t make sense to a Catholic, because a Catholic does not understand the Church as an “organization.” Yes, the Church has a visible, physical body here on earth, just as Christ had a visible, physical body when he walked among us as a man. But in her essence, as both the Body and the Bride of Christ, the Church is something far beyond the “corporation.” The corporation is within her and coterminous with her; outside “the corporation,” one is at least partly detached from her. She is the covenant Bride; we are the covenant family. “Organization” does not begin to describe it.

Have a look at this and this from the *Catechism of the Catholic Church. *There’s more where that came from.

Catholics scratch their heads in puzzlement when Protestants quote 2 Tim 3:16-17 at us, because if you look at when Paul was writing, the only agreed-upon scriptures were possibly what we now call the Old Testament – and even that had not yet been closed by the Jews. Moreover, Paul says the scriptures are *profitable, *he does not say that they are *sufficient. *

Not until the canon is closed (in fact not until the Protestant rupture) is scripture thought of as the Bible and treated with the absolute supremacy we see in the Protestant traditions. That makes sense for them, of course, because Protestantism had to cut the other two cords (Tradition and magisterial teaching) that make up the unbroken rope of authentic doctrine.

Moreover, in NT times Scripture as we know it did not exist. The “writings” were still amorphous. There were a lot of false claimants to sacred scripturehood. Why shouldn’t the Protoevangelion of James and *The Gospel of Thomas *be considered inspired? Only because authoritative Church councils, using stringent criteria, excluded them in the canon.

As for 2 Tim 3:16-17 teaching about every moral issue, just look at the ethical dilemmas unthought-of in the first century that confront us every day – and Scripture is used to justify everything. For example, a Baptist told me that the reason that the SBC decided to allow artificial contraception is that the matter is not discussed in Scripture – nevertheless, until the middle of the 20th Century, the SBC soundly condemned it. Go figure. Some Protestant bodies endorse abortion on demand. Ditto divorce: Jesus himself is the hard-liner on this one but Protestant bodies universally allow remarriage after divorce.

 

[SolaChristo]

MariaG:

Oh, I see. Pictures and stuff are okay as long as you do not worship them.

But you can’t kneel either, or you are worshipping?

I know some Protestants who have a special prayer room. It has nothing in it except their bible on a small table, and sometimes a kneeler. They say it helps them concetrate on God and His word. They kneel down and read the Word. After reading, they hold the bible in their hands, to their head. Do you believe they are worshipping their bible because they are kneeling down with the Bible in front of them?

God Bless,
Maria

There are those that accuse some protestants of bible worship. Im not one of those.
So some have “prayer closets” a room set aside for prayer, If God is spirit why is it neccesary to have pictures of anything in this prayer closet or sanctuary or tabernacle? Ive heard it said that these items help make one think this or that-- is not the object of our prayer, God? Statues and pictures cna be distracting if one is praying to God alone.

What is the essence of worship?

 

[SolaChristo]

NotWorthy:

Smelton, thank you for your honest reply. I know it’s its a different way of thinking, even though to us its perfectly natural.

Does the Spirit Guide the Church?
Yes! Look at Sacred Tradition.
You have to admit that the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to determine the New Testament Canon’s, right? How else could some corrupt and fallible men determine all the correct books of the New Testament? It didn’t fall out of the sky, you know. So if the Spirit guides the Church to determine the right canon, why shouldn’t it guide the Church in all other teachings, especially when the Bible doesn’t cover every moral dilemna we come across (at least I don’t think stem cell research was mentioned in it).

Second, we know that:
A) Jesus left behind a Church. He stated it quite clearly in Matthew 16.
B) We know that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide something (either the Church or individuals).

Why would He have needed a Church, “The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth” if the Holy Spirit was going to guide people, and not the Church? Wouldn’t that negate the need for a Church?

Notworthy

Where we part ways is in defining Christs Church.
I define it as all believers, I believe you would define it differently.
So we can have no real agreement here.

 

[mercygate]

SolaChristo:

What is the essence of worship?

Ah. I would be interested in *your *answer to that question.

For a Catholic, of course, the essence of worship is consummated in the Sacrifice of the Mass. For us, following the pattern of Christ at Calvary, perfect worship must include sacrifice. Other devotional things we do (prayer of several kinds, pondering Scripture, chanting the Divine Office), are all accessories to the “real business” of the Mass.

 

[NotWorthy]

SolaChristo:

Where we part ways is in defining Christs Church.
I define it as all believers, I believe you would define it differently.
So we can have no real agreement here.

Do you define it any differently than they do in Acts of the Apostles, where they clearly set up bishops and priests. They set up what we call the Magisterium to deal with issues such as Circumcision.

Notworthy

 

[NotWorthy]

smelton:

I would 100 percent agree that the Spirit should guide the church and that it is the will of God for that to happen. I don’t have any issue with that at all. I guess in my protestant brain I stuggle to equate perfection and the church. I have no trouble equating perfection and Christ. I have no trouble saying that scripture is the word of God. I just struggle with the concept that the churches word as an organization is the word of God.

The Church, “The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth”. “There is one truth, one faith, one baptism”.

smelton:

2 Tim 3:16-17 is a verse that I think would disqualify your statement about the bible not teaching about every moral issue.

To give creedence to "All Scripture … is useful for teaching.…“and not "hold onto the truths that you have learned**” is picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you will follow.
All Scripture is useful (or profitable) for teaching… does not mean it is the sole source of teaching, because then it would say “All Scripture … is sufficient for teaching”, now wouldn’t it? Regarding “Hold onto the truths”, how were they passed on? By Oral Tradition. The NT Scriptures were not even close to being finished yet.

smelton:

Application of the word. I don’t feel that we need the church to tell us what is truth. I believe that is why God inspired the NT writers. I have the truth, God’s word. I’m not sure what biblically qualifies an organization to dictate truth. I agree that with time comes wisdom but also that sometimes with time comes tradition that is not rooted in scripture. I also agree that we need the church, just not to dictate the truth. Does that make sense?

Then who dictates the truth? The Bible? Then why are there 100’s of denominations each with their own interpretation of the truth? All you have to do is study the Council of Nicea. It took the Church over 100 years to determine that Christ is fully God and fully Man. One in being with the father. That nearly tore the church apart. This is something that we take for granted today, but it was not apparently evident to the early church.

Notworthy

Notworthy

 

[NotWorthy]

smelton:

2 Tim 3:16-17 is a verse that I think would disqualify your statement about the bible not teaching about every moral issue.

Then what in the bible changed, causing every major Christian religion to change their position on Contraception - well, every major Christian religion except the Catholic Church. Every one of the major Protestant Religions condemned contraception prior to 1930. None of them condemn it any more.

Now, I ask you, what happened to the bible to cause this shift in doctrine?

Notworthy

 

[MariaG]

SolaChristo:

There are those that accuse some protestants of bible worship. Im not one of those.
So some have “prayer closets” a room set aside for prayer, If God is spirit why is it neccesary to have pictures of anything in this prayer closet or sanctuary or tabernacle? Ive heard it said that these items help make one think this or that-- is not the object of our prayer, God? Statues and pictures cna be distracting if one is praying to God alone.

What is the essence of worship?

Okay, so the act of kneeling does not automatically mean you are worshipping the item in front of you.

So pictures in and of themselves are okay, and so is kneeling in front of objects as long as you are worshipping God not the object.

So how then, if I say I am not worshipping the image in front of me but using it to meditate upon the life of Christ, how come that is idol worship and your bible reader isn’t?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[ben_dy]

SolaChristo:

LOL,

Other than my Catholic stuff I dont. I do have some basketball pictures.
What is the purpose have haveing a commandment that we dont obey?
The question is are all that stuff necessary?

Wait - now I’m confused. You have basketball pictures in your church or in your home? Just pictures of basketballs or basketball players?

As to why something such a pictures, etc., might enhance a prayerful experience is that all senses can be engaged in giving all glory and worship to God, who blessed us with our senses and by whose grace we are able to worship Him.

 

[ben_dy]

SolaChristo:

Catholics say they dont worship the images therefore its permissable. I would say that the prohibition is against the images themselves not only the use of the images.

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Old Testament? I’ve heard some protestants claim that they follow all of God’s commandments - even Old Testament commandments - but the commandments that they don’t recognize would be horrible to an orthodox Jew.

 

[SolaChristo]

ben_dy:

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Old Testament? I’ve heard some protestants claim that they follow all of God’s commandments - even Old Testament commandments - but the commandments that they don’t recognize would be horrible to an orthodox Jew.

So its OK to only obey 9 commandments?

 

[SolaChristo]

ben_dy:

Wait - now I’m confused. You have basketball pictures in your church or in your home? Just pictures of basketballs or basketball players?

As to why something such a pictures, etc., might enhance a prayerful experience is that all senses can be engaged in giving all glory and worship to God, who blessed us with our senses and by whose grace we are able to worship Him.

So worship should be a “sensual” experieince?

 

[NotWorthy]

SolaChristo:

So its OK to only obey 9 commandments?

OK, I’ll bite… what commandment do we break? I already know the answer, but I want specifics, if you’re going to make accusations.

God Bless!

Notworthy

P.S. And while you’re at it, can you please address post number 66 to Smelton?

 

[mercygate]

SolaChristo:

So worship should be a “sensual” experieince?

Why not? In the temple worship included “timbrels and dances,” beautiful embroidery (including images of pomegranates) bells and on the priestly garments, singing, playing of instruments, carvings in the temple, fragrant cedar wood in the beams of the ceiling, gold and silver vessels, incense . . . Seems like God encouraged us to worship him with all of our senses.

In Catholic worship we include gesture and posture (kneeling, the sign of the cross, bowing, genuflecting, prostrations) and sacramentals, such as blessed water, so that we pray and worship with our whole body and all of our senses.

Since the worship of Christ far outstrips that of the old Covenant, why should it not surpass that of the old Covenant in form as it does in content?

 

[SolaChristo]

mercygate:

Why not? In the temple worship included “timbrels and dances,” beautiful embroidery (including images of pomegranates) bells and on the priestly garments, singing, playing of instruments, carvings in the temple, fragrant cedar wood in the beams of the ceiling, gold and silver vessels, incense . . . Seems like God encouraged us to worship him with all of our senses.

In Catholic worship we include gesture and posture (kneeling, the sign of the cross, bowing, genuflecting, prostrations) and sacramentals, such as blessed water, so that we pray and worship with our whole body and all of our senses.

Since the worship of Christ far outstrips that of the old Covenant, why should it not surpass that of the old Covenant in form as it does in content?

So you thik we ought to worship as David did?
Singing and dancing with all sorts of musical instruments?
Sounds like a lot of nonDem churches Ive been to.

But are the statues etal necessary?

 

[SolaChristo]

NotWorthy:

OK, I’ll bite… what commandment do we break? I already know the answer, but I want specifics, if you’re going to make accusations.

God Bless!

Notworthy

P.S. And while you’re at it, can you please address post number 66 to Smelton?

Come on Notworthy that was a response to Ben who was trying to justify his behavior because I might not practice levitical dietary laws.

 

[BeluvdLily]

As someone who is new to Catholicism (formerly Protestant and now in RCIA) I can only say that the statues, pictures, etc. are part of what I really love about the Catholic Church. They are so beautiful and make me feel so much closer to God and the saints. I love knowing that I have the saints on my side. I love the devotion to Mary. I think there is such beauty in the Catholic Church.

Even before I was attending RCIA I never thought that Catholics worship these images. To me that is just silly. In my Protestant Church (United Church of Christ) we had beautiful painted murals that I loved to look at as a child when I sat in church. They were of the Last Supper and various other scenes. Thankfully my church was not anti-Catholic and had no problem with beautiful artwork.

To me it is natural to use these things to draw closer to God and Jesus and anything that brings us closer can only be good. Same with the saints. I love having them as examples to encourage me to live a holy life.

I don’t have any scriptural argument to back any of this up and you all have that covered anyway. Just the thoughts of someone who is new to Catholicism and finds it very comforting and natural.

Amie

 

[NotWorthy]

SolaChristo:

Come on Notworthy that was a response to Ben who was trying to justify his behavior because I might not practice levitical dietary laws.

OK, I’m totally lost now. Let’s see, “Who’s on First? What’s on second?” Man, now I’m really confused.

Notworthy

 

[ben_dy]

SolaChristo:

So its OK to only obey 9 commandments?

There is the argument that is made that God did not intend “Thou shalt not kill” literally but only in terms of murder (which has further been refined by varying societal & religious norms over the centuries) but I was speaking of your objection to images themselves and not only, as I believe God intended, idols - things which were gods themselves and not simply representative of Gods. Both orthodox Judaism as well as Islam understand the commandment as you do - and there are some religious sects, of course, who believe that there are no exceptions to the “Thou shalt not kill” commandment.

My point, of course, is that if you are going to follow Mishna it should be - so as not to be hypocritical - followed to the letter of the law and not, as Christians do, following - basically - twelve commandments.

 

[ben_dy]

SolaChristo:

So worship should be a “sensual” experieince?

Oh, when it’s possible? When the physical and the spiritual come together as one? Absolutely! There is nothing so joyous I think than when all of one’s senses are engaged in worshipping God - not the slightest chance for distraction! It’s not always - not even usually - possible but when you are able to engage as many senses as possible in the worship of God it is to and for His Glory. To engage one’s whole self - body, mind, spirit, as we were created - in the worship of God is, perhaps, one of the most complete ways of offering thanksgiving and praise that can be accomplished. Even in small ways - when we kneel in prayer, for instance - is a tactile sensory experience of oblation.