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ben_dy
Guest
What, do tell, is the behavior which I was trying to justify?
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M
mercygate
Guest
I am not sure what you mean by “et al.” Nor do I fully understand your use of the word “necessary.”So you thik we ought to worship as David did?
Singing and dancing with all sorts of musical instruments?
Sounds like a lot of nonDem churches Ive been to.
But are the statues etal necessary?
Catholic worship derives much from the old temple in that ***the ***temple and perfect Sacrifice is Jesus Christ, and only in the context of the old covenant do we fully understand the new. Only via the types and shadows, of which Christ is the fulfillment, are we fully able to apprehend and to approach perfect worship of God in Christ.
So then, yes: insfoar as images conform to that worship, insofar as they enhance that worship, glorify God, and draw hearts to him, then they are “necessary” to the full expression and experience of the new covenant Sacrifice.
Your questions lead me to conclude two things: 1) you have not spent much time in Catholic churches if you think they are statuary gardens, and 2) you are unaware that the movement to eliminate images from Christian worship (the iconoclast movement) first arose in the 7th-8th centuries in response to Islamic pressures on the Byzantine empire. The restoration of the images was known as the “triumph of orthodoxy” and is celebrated in the Eastern Churches to this very day. Subsequent to that, the use of images was never challenged again until the Protestant revolt, which took a uniquely violent form in the British Isles.
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SolaChristo
Guest
Actualy your wrong on both accounts. Im fully aware of the Orthodox position on icons and there use.
Also a carefull reading of John 4
**Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” **
shows us a number of things
- the Jews knew who they worshipped, YHVH had revealed Himself to them.
- up until the time of Jesus true worship had not taken place.
But at the telling of John 4 true worship was instituted— not at the time of the death of Christ but at the telling Christ had just made. - worship was not isolated to one location or place but could take place anywhere.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I’d like to address this subject in parable form.
I’m 250 miles from home and eating dinner w/ a young woman 20+ years my junior. We are obviously having an intimate conversation with alot of laughter, I occassionally reach across the table and affectionately touch her hand. During the dinner I give her a small gift and in it is a piece of nice jewelry. The woman is ecstatic and she reaches across the table and affectionately embraces my hand. Across the room is a person from my town who knows this person is not my wife. What do you think the person thinks? I’m having an affair w/ this woman?
Fact of the matter. This is my neice and Godchild. The gift is a family heirloom of my grandmother and a religious necklace. The occassion of the dinner is the anniversary of her baptism (we try to get together around that time every year despite the distance between us and that she is in graduate school).
My point is that Mercy and others tried to explain that Catholics don’t consider the image graven but holy. Additionally, SoloChristo doesn’t have any concept of the Catholic tradition of making places holy among the temporal. In our house, our family has a place that is known as a place of prayer. On a bookshelf above the chair is a statue of the Child King Jesus Christ and one of the Blessed Virgin. Whenever one is there, it is known we are in prayer (contemplative or otherwise), saying a rosary or reading the Bible or some other religious book. The place is always respected (never use it for other purposes and to leave it the cleanest place in the house). You should see the looks of non-Catholics when my daughters don’t let their friends sit or even be in that area of our house becuase it is our “family holy space.”
The veneration and prayerful reflection on the image is like the exchange of affection w/ my niece- a way to bring ourselves closer to God as we express our appreciation for His gift of the saint or the religious image in the painting/statue. However, SoloChristo is blinded by his own bias and only sees something sinful. All of SoloChristo’s responses ignored or denied that he might not know what is in the heart of the faithful Catholic just as the person from my town denied or ignored that my afffection for this woman (my niece and Goddaughter) might be proper.
Personally, the accusation that a Catholic is violating the 2nd Commandment when Solo knows not what is in the heart of the faithful Catholic is bearing false witness (violation of the 9th Commandment) just as the person across the restaurant did when he went back to my town and told someone that I was having an affair.
On a side bar, when the story of my restaurant dinner got back to my wife, she confronted the person w/ a picture of my niece and said that the Christian thing (this person is a judgmental evangelical prone to self-righteous condemnation of anyone “who doesn’t pray like him”) would have been to talk direct to me and not spread such harmful rumors.
I’m 250 miles from home and eating dinner w/ a young woman 20+ years my junior. We are obviously having an intimate conversation with alot of laughter, I occassionally reach across the table and affectionately touch her hand. During the dinner I give her a small gift and in it is a piece of nice jewelry. The woman is ecstatic and she reaches across the table and affectionately embraces my hand. Across the room is a person from my town who knows this person is not my wife. What do you think the person thinks? I’m having an affair w/ this woman?
Fact of the matter. This is my neice and Godchild. The gift is a family heirloom of my grandmother and a religious necklace. The occassion of the dinner is the anniversary of her baptism (we try to get together around that time every year despite the distance between us and that she is in graduate school).
My point is that Mercy and others tried to explain that Catholics don’t consider the image graven but holy. Additionally, SoloChristo doesn’t have any concept of the Catholic tradition of making places holy among the temporal. In our house, our family has a place that is known as a place of prayer. On a bookshelf above the chair is a statue of the Child King Jesus Christ and one of the Blessed Virgin. Whenever one is there, it is known we are in prayer (contemplative or otherwise), saying a rosary or reading the Bible or some other religious book. The place is always respected (never use it for other purposes and to leave it the cleanest place in the house). You should see the looks of non-Catholics when my daughters don’t let their friends sit or even be in that area of our house becuase it is our “family holy space.”
The veneration and prayerful reflection on the image is like the exchange of affection w/ my niece- a way to bring ourselves closer to God as we express our appreciation for His gift of the saint or the religious image in the painting/statue. However, SoloChristo is blinded by his own bias and only sees something sinful. All of SoloChristo’s responses ignored or denied that he might not know what is in the heart of the faithful Catholic just as the person from my town denied or ignored that my afffection for this woman (my niece and Goddaughter) might be proper.
Personally, the accusation that a Catholic is violating the 2nd Commandment when Solo knows not what is in the heart of the faithful Catholic is bearing false witness (violation of the 9th Commandment) just as the person across the restaurant did when he went back to my town and told someone that I was having an affair.
On a side bar, when the story of my restaurant dinner got back to my wife, she confronted the person w/ a picture of my niece and said that the Christian thing (this person is a judgmental evangelical prone to self-righteous condemnation of anyone “who doesn’t pray like him”) would have been to talk direct to me and not spread such harmful rumors.
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mercygate
Guest
This passage from John’s gospel in no way contradicts anything I said except possibly for the idea that “true worship” is already fully consummated – before Calvary, before pentecost. Your view is novel.
CHRIST is the temple of the new covenant. True worship is in Christ. Make no mistake about it: We know what we worship.
Did I give the impression that we still worship in the temple at Jerusalem? If so, I should have made myself clearer. Apologies.
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mercygate
Guest
One more thought on this. In Christ, the incarnate Lord, God acquired a human face; God acquired flesh and sense. So incarnational worship both engages and sanctifies the senses.
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SolaChristo
Guest
Why does it seem that you are in the “attack mode”.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
What did I say that you thought was attacking? Did the parable open your eyes and cause you discomfort?
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mercygate
Guest
Let me offer a collective apology for what may appear to ba “attack mode.”
Catholics often are challenged by outright hostile fundamentalists – not queried respectfully but frankly assaulted. A typical conversation may go like this:
F: Why do you Romanists worship graven images?
C: We don’t.
F: Yes you do.
C: No. We venerate what the image represents; but we worship only God.
F: No you don’t. Worship, veneration: same thing. You worship graven images.
Sometimes we react unfairly as if we were in that kind of conversation because the issues may be the same, though the motivation is not.
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SolaChristo
Guest
Let me make a change to your story.
Suppose it is illegal to be at a restuarnt with any woman other than your wife. You were at this restuarant with your niece, but insist that you have done nothing wrong because even though the women is not your wife you are not haveing relations with her. The point is not that you are having relations with your niece but that you violated the law anyway.
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smelton
Guest
I admit that the protestant churches are not perfect. I admit that we screw up scripture with errant teachings at times. I would say that God dictates the truth and that we were given his word to try and understand the truth. The Council of Nicea did not make the truth did they? They simpley tried to understand what the scripture teaches, correct? I believe that God’s grace is suffecient for our lives and that when we(the church) mess up he is sanctifing us as a body and as a individuals. I wish there were not so many divisions among denominations. I think it hurts more than it helps. I would love for their to be unity. But I think you would admit that its not God’s word that is wrong but the churches whom make the errors. I’m just curious that if you can see that in protestant churches why that is not visible in the Roman Catholic Church? I really apprecitate your point of view it is helping me understand your position better.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
SolaChristo:
To make an image of a saint therefore (and keep in mind that the Church forbids worship of any image–forbids the giving of latria–adoration/worship–to anything but God) is to make an image of Christ acting and active in the world because the saint’s life and deeds (accomplished through God’s grace) reveal Christ–if they did not, this person would not be a saint! The image, therefore, invites us to consider the example of the saint, which example invites us to consider Christ, which consideration invites us to union with the Father through Christ in the Spirit.
All of this is grounded in the mystery of the Incarnation.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
SolaChristo, I don’t know if anyone has brought this up yet, but the use of images in the Catholic tradition (and in the Orthodox East) is based firmly in the incarnation. The un-imagable God was made known in Christ, the express image of the un-imagable. Through the incarnation, we realize that God has chosen (in a great and holy mystery!) to represent himself to us in human flesh. The human image, therefore (as if in a re-statement and re-confirmation of Genesis’ words that we were made in the “image and likeness of God”) is the icon of God. Through Christ, we see God. In Christ, we see Man as he is meant to be. In Christ we discover the life of God joined to our human identity–in short, we discover ourselves.
To make an image of a saint therefore (and keep in mind that the Church forbids worship of any image–forbids the giving of latria–adoration/worship–to anything but God) is to make an image of Christ acting and active in the world because the saint’s life and deeds (accomplished through God’s grace) reveal Christ–if they did not, this person would not be a saint! The image, therefore, invites us to consider the example of the saint, which example invites us to consider Christ, which consideration invites us to union with the Father through Christ in the Spirit.
All of this is grounded in the mystery of the Incarnation.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
M
mercygate
Guest
Another thought on what may seem like “attack mode.”
Hillaire Belloc used a powerful illustration when he said that critics of the Church are like men inside Chartres Cathedral on a dark night, trying to see the stained glass windows by candle light, and wondering why people say that these windows are so beautiful.
It would be too glib to say “you gotta be there” but there is some truth in that statement. “Catholicity” is a comprehensive proposition. All the pieces fit into a majestic and coherent whole, informed by the mind of Christ. It takes a certain measure of “being there” – or at least a measure of receptivity – in order to grasp the big picture.
J
jim1130
Guest
What about the Christian “fish” symbol of the fish that is often prominently displayed on cars, trucks, business cards, advertisements, t-shirts, businesses, etc. Is the Christian “fish” symbol exempt?
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Good point. If it was illegal. However, just as being in the restaurant w/ my neice is not illegal, neither is having reverent statues and pictures in my house. Everything we have is a gift from God and this includes our senses. If I use the gift of my eyesight to gaze upon the Sacred Heart of Jesus statue to more tangibly experience the Love God has for me or a statue of the Blessed Mother to more tangibly reflect on her perfect example of Discipleship via her Fiat, I am confident that it is pleasing to God.
Catholics are not their own Magisterium. Your tradition makes you or some other man your magisterium. We take great comfort in the Tradition of our Jewish forebears and the early Church Fathers (including the Apostles) who encouraged sacred statues and artwork as vehicles for our gift of eyesight to bring us closer to God or better understand Him.
We are also tolerant if you feel that such things are “graven” to you and do not bring you closer to God but we will not stand by passively while you accuse us of idolotry. You know not what is in our heart and for that you are bearing false witness.
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mercygate
Guest
The first step in answering this extremely central question is to ask you what you mean by “error” in Catholic teaching. Not putting you off here: this is a foundational point of the discssion.
J
jim1130
Guest
I can appreciate your point-of-view; however, the Catholic Church relies on the Magesterium to interpret Scripture since the Bible is not self-interpreting. In contrast, the non-Catholic Churches endorse autonomy and the ability of the individual to interpret Holy Scripture. Even Churches of the same denomination are allowed the freedom to interpret Scripture independently of one another. When there is a conflict with the interpretation of Holy Scripture to whom does the non-Catholic go since the Holy Spirit is incapable of creating the interpretive confusion and contradictions? Allowing the individual to interpret Holy Scriptures means the individual can justify and rationalize any interpretation from personal subjective experiences. Does this make sense?
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Mickey
Guest
I’m not sure you’ll be able to convince SolaChristo otherwise.
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mercygate
Guest
That is not important. All we need to do is state the Catholic position clearly, in the power of the Holy Spirit, and in a way people can understand. “Convincing” – as you know – is the Holy Spirit’s prerogative, and when it comes to the Catholic Church, “convincing” can take decades. Superficial Christianity may be acquired overnight, but the depths and reaches of the faith, the full glory of Christ in his Body and Bride – that can take a while if you’ve been taught to believe the Church is something other than she is.I’m not sure you’ll be able to convince SolaChristo otherwise.
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jim1130
Guest
I’ve only been visiting this forum recently, but am already discouraged by the amount of hostile anti-Catholic rhetoric permeating the threads disqualifying reason, logic, history, science, tradition, intellect, etc. to substantiate and promote their individualistic stances, positions, and theologies. The pious tones of these anti-Catholics do little to make me sympathetic to their standpoints and, in fact, make me less tolerant of their theology and more devout as a Catholic. How, after 2,000 years, people continue to misinterpret Catholicism, endorsed by non-Catholic pastors, theologians, etc. who should be educated and informed, is an absolute mystery to me. The rise of the super-star pastor (see Joel Osteen, Jim Bakker, and Benny Himm) and superstar prophets (see Joseph Smith and Mohammad) are violations of the “thou shalt not have false god before me” Commandment, but the non-Catholic obsesses on Catholic “icons” and Mary. These anti-Catholics do not want to know our position or even care to hear our position because explanations offered by the well-informed Catholics on this site are dismissed, belittled, and/or insulted. From my perspective, their goals are to defame, defraud, etc. Catholicism as a way to elevate their own theologies, ideologies, and prophets. It is a shame that their basis of faith relies on insulting the true faith. In a simplistic comparison, such antagonism reminds me of the turbulence in the Middle East where the Palestinians, and Arabs in general, are fed hate (hated toward Israel, hatred toward the US) because that is easier than peace and understanding. On the other and more positive hand, I have learned a significant amount in defense of the Catholic Church that reinforces my faith. I am not well versed enough to tackle the contrarian views head on, but appreciate those Catholics significantly more knowledgeable who present doctrine in a reasonable, intelligent, and articulate way, and I enjoy reading and learning from them. To those I say “thank you.”I’m not sure you’ll be able to convince SolaChristo otherwise.
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