R
rcwitness
Guest
Their belligerent behavior apparently shows a lack of Christian virtue.
- Status
C
Cat
Guest
Of course not.
If you disagree that the U.S. culture encourages an indulgent lifestyle, that’s fine. It’s my observation, based on my involvement with culture in my area of the country (Northern Illinois/Chicago area). I find very few people who say, “No, thank you, I only eat sweets a few times a month for very special occasions.” I certainly don’t say that (I should).
But perhaps you live in an area of the U.S. where addictive behaviors and overindulgence are rare, and where companies don’t insist that “you need this to be happy.” You are fortunate.
C
Cat
Guest
No, of course not.
C
Cat
Guest
OTOH, when scientists are looking for a “control group” for a study of human health, they often turn to the 7th Day Adventists, who, because of their abstinent lifestyle (they avoid not only alcohol, but caffeine and overindulgence of any type) are among the healthiest people in the world, with a low incidence of obesity and obesity-related conditions, high blood pressure, fatty liver, cancer, heart disease, etc.
The 7th Day Adventists that I know are physical paragons, and I often wonder why I’m so foolish to be killing myself with food! Of course, we all have to die of something, don’t we?
But I am serious–if you leave out the anti-Catholicism and just look at the lifestyle choices, the 7th Day Adventists are among the healthiest people in the U.S. So why shouldn’t healthy people write books and pamphlets sharing “how they do it.”
C
Cat
Guest
Just want to make sure you understand that none of these churches/denominations are “Evangelical Protestant.” That’s the group that I spent the first 47 years of my life with, and therefore, feel fairly comfortable commenting on in response to the OP’s query.
It also happens to be the fastest-growing Christian community in the U.S. Evangelical Protestantism is growing by leaps and bounds.
And yes, there are signs that Evangelical Protestants are relaxing their stance on alcohol. But from what I have seen in my area of the country, most Evangelical Protestant churches/fellowships, and most Evangelical Protestant families and individuals, are absolutely, uncompromisingly AGAINST alcohol use.
Like it or not.
C
Cat
Guest
Yes, I hear you. Even among Protestants, the 7DAs are “suspect.” While I was growing up, we considered them a borderline cult. Then back in the 1980s, Dr. James Dobson, who is admired and respected by almost all Evangelical Protestants, validated 7DAs by featuring child behavior experts/home schooling advocates Dr. Raymond and Dr. Dorothy Moore, who were 7DAs, but they had the most wonderful faith-filled methods of raising and educating children! I loved their books and their talks! The Moores did a lot to promote home schooling (7DAs have always been home schooling advocates).
I think that we just have to take each individual as they come to us. Many 7DAs are loving people who truly believe in Jesus Christ and have no idea of some of the anti-Catholic teachings of their church (just like many Catholics have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches!). And I think we can really learn a lot from 7DAs about healthy living, although they die, too.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
“I only eat sweets a few times a month for very special occasions” why would anyone say that, it’s so condescending??? I lived in the same area as you for most of my life (northwestern burbs) and while I never heard anyone use your phrase I’ve seen plenty of people turn down sweets sometimes giving reason such as, I’m full, I really don’t need that, I don’t really like cake/donuts/candy, I’ve already had enough goodies today. More often they simply said no thanks and that was the end of it. Over all in the area I didn’t see rampant overindulgence in eating, drinking, gambling, could people have improved, sure but then I doubt there is anyone who couldn’t benefit from improvement in just about every aspect of their lives.Of course not.
If you disagree that the U.S. culture encourages an indulgent lifestyle, that’s fine. It’s my observation, based on my involvement with culture in my area of the country (Northern Illinois/Chicago area). I find very few people who say, “No, thank you, I only eat sweets a few times a month for very special occasions.” I certainly don’t say that (I should).
But perhaps you live in an area of the U.S. where addictive behaviors and overindulgence are rare, and where companies don’t insist that “you need this to be happy.” You are fortunate.
Everywhere there is a TV or computer there are companies who “insist “you need this to be happy.”” Some of the best money I spent was on a handful of products for kids sold on TV. I chose the ones I though most likely to disappoint and sure enough my kids were quite disappointed in the products performance. We discussed advertising every time they were disappointed, by age 8 they were quite the jaded and suspicious little consumers.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Why, I’ve participated is some very long and enlightening conversations attending “Theology on Tap”. Which by the way is for folks up to 40 though they don’t card. I’ve also never seen ToT in a “bar” it’s usually been in a restaurant though church facilities are common and even an abbey. I really don’t see what’s so awful about sitting in a bar, heck these days about 1 in4 aren’t even drinking since they are the DD. What’s so wrong about bringing a discussion about God and religion into a bar, you might be surprised to find that those around you are interested and join in the conversation. We had it happen more than once.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Interesting google search results for “moderate drinkers live longer than teetotalers”
I’m not a big fan of Mr. Dobson and I don’t care how many Evangelicals love and respect him.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Do you fore go other events like ethnic festivals, or neighborhood block parties because of the drinking?
Bart Burt should ponder what 3DOP said.
L
ltwin
Guest
First, I’d like to say that I’m not Catholic. I’m Protestant from a tradition that has historically frowned on all use of alcohol (obviously, that doesn’t mean that it never happens only that is generally seen as questionable and not something one should do).
I knew that Catholics only condemned drunkenness and not simply alcohol use. But I have to say I’m surprised that alcohol is used at parish events (outside of a sacramental context). I’ve never been to a Catholic parish festival or what not, but for someone like me, just knowing that there would be alcohol there would not be the greatest first impression.
Take that for what its worth, but former evangelicals on this thread have made valid points. If there is alcohol at parish events, it will alienate evangelicals who may even have some openness to exploring the Catholic Church but just aren’t willing to put up with alcohol use around what to their minds would become their new “church family”.
I knew that Catholics only condemned drunkenness and not simply alcohol use. But I have to say I’m surprised that alcohol is used at parish events (outside of a sacramental context). I’ve never been to a Catholic parish festival or what not, but for someone like me, just knowing that there would be alcohol there would not be the greatest first impression.
Take that for what its worth, but former evangelicals on this thread have made valid points. If there is alcohol at parish events, it will alienate evangelicals who may even have some openness to exploring the Catholic Church but just aren’t willing to put up with alcohol use around what to their minds would become their new “church family”.
C
Cat
Guest
christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/why-i-gave-up-alcohol.html?share=ciOq+4zux%2FoW6jM1IaARvSkNOZEyPE3+&paging=off#bmb=1
This is a link to a recent article in Christianity Today (May 22, 2014). I’m going to start another thread with this article as the OP. I think the thread needs to be posted in the Social Justice section of CAF, so if you’re interested, slide on over there.
The key statement in the article is “I didn’t give up alcohol because I wanted to flee the evils of the world. I gave up alcohol as a way of engaging the evils of the world.”
The young author of this article brought out several points that I have made in this thread, mainly that Christians are taught by Jesus to look out for our weaker brothers and sisters.
Please read this article. It’s well-written by someone who is obviously not an anti-Catholic fundamentalist separatist.
This is a link to a recent article in Christianity Today (May 22, 2014). I’m going to start another thread with this article as the OP. I think the thread needs to be posted in the Social Justice section of CAF, so if you’re interested, slide on over there.
The key statement in the article is “I didn’t give up alcohol because I wanted to flee the evils of the world. I gave up alcohol as a way of engaging the evils of the world.”
The young author of this article brought out several points that I have made in this thread, mainly that Christians are taught by Jesus to look out for our weaker brothers and sisters.
Please read this article. It’s well-written by someone who is obviously not an anti-Catholic fundamentalist separatist.
J
JamesCollins
Guest
I guess my reaction to this is overly emotional. I made a decision before I even had a religion that I wouldn’t ever drink. That was when I was a young teenager. I’ve never had a drink, but I’ve experienced the sadness caused by alcohol. Shortly after graduation five of my best friends were killed in an accident involving alcohol. They were all Catholic. I won’t go into all of the other experiences I’ve had with relatives whose lives have been cut short or ruined by alcoholism. I just can’t simply sit back and say nothing when the Catholic Church seems to in many ways subtly promote this illness by providing alcohol at church functions. It’s unnecessary.
R
rcwitness
Guest
I love Theology on Tap! I believe it offers much more good than this mentality that people are getting an impression that the Church is openning a door to abusing alcohol. It is actually a way to engage fellowship where people are during their leisure time. It breaks the ice of formal rigidness. I think it actually will likely influence people to be more willing to remember and share their faith during secular activities and in ordinary, everyday places.
I don’t doubt you have hesitations about participating in a Catholic festival on the grounds that there is alcohol available. What I contest is a false assumption there is wrong behavior and irreverence to Jesus by merely providing alcohol drinks for those who are of age. Further, I don’t believe this use of alcohol in Parish festivals and Theological fellowship programs is in itself holding back a genuine believer from entering into full Communion with the Church. This is an excuse based on emotion and misunderstanding of where the cause of drunkeness really lies.
Someone who decides to give up something for a greater good deserves commendation. But this needs to be done by individuals who excercise a fast from something that is freely offered and available to them. You cannot fast something that is a sin
You already are obligated to reject it. Consuming alcohol drinks responsibly is a free priveledge which has no grounds for condemning. Therefore, abstaining from drinking must be determined by individuals and not imposed on a whole community. There is nothing wrong with private decissions to give up anything, especially alcohol. It is actually one of the more popular fasts during the lenten season.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Do you fore go other events like ethnic festivals, or neighborhood block parties because of the drinking?
How about bowling, sporting events and concerts where people consume alcohol do you skip those too?
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Just curious are you willing to give up meat in order to not be a stumbling block to Hindus and others who find the killing of animals offensive? How about changing your wardrobe to say, dresses and headcoverings, to avoid stumbling those who feel women should be covered and never wear pants like men? How about only going out in public in the company of a male relative in order not to offend those who find women out and about alone scandalous?
C
charlesby
Guest
The law is not a determinant here. You keep on stressing “of age.” What has that got to do with anything? There are many reasons why no church should provide alcohol on its premises, the first being in 1 Cor 11:28-34
“And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.”
The second being that drivers should not be drinking alcohol at all, optimally.
The third being that if you can’t do without alcohol, you’ve got a problem, whether personally or as a church.
The fourth being, it sets a bad example to everyone else and encourages casual drinking.
The fifth being, it is scandalous for single women on their own to be offered alcoholic drink by persons to whom they are not related or who are their guardians.
The sixth being that the church has got better things to do with its money than buy alcohol.
The seventh being that there is no reason to drink alcohol on church premises, and what is not from faith, is sin.
L
ltwin
Guest
My point is that many evangelicals wont even get far enough into exploration of Catholicism to be a “genuine believer” if they can’t overcome their association of social drinking at church activities with “worldliness”.
Of course, I would never tell Catholics that they need to change their behavior for the sake of evangelicals. What I am saying is that if Catholics are interested in seeing greater interest from evangelicals interested in Catholicism, even potential converts, they would be wise to reflect on the signals they send.
J
johnnyc176
Guest
If it is not coming from the fullness of Truth in Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded, the Catholic Church it really doesn’t matter what community is growing by leaps and bounds. A claim could be made that atheism is growing by leaps and bounds too.
The Catholic Church does not need to look to protestantism or become more protestant to attract protestants. The Truth should suffice.
- Status