Mary_Gail_36
New member
Except that the grape harvest is in late summer. By the time the Passover came in the spring, there were no fresh grapes to turn into juice.
Without refrigeration, grape juice ferments.
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Without refrigeration, grape juice ferments.
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JamesCollins
Guest
Except that the article I mentioned earlier shows that ancients had a way of preserving grapes so they could be using freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice up to a year after the harvest.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Can you please elaborate on the fifth pont? As a single woman on my own, who is supposed to be my guardian? Are women perpetual minors to you?
What exactly is scandalous about being offered an alcoholic drink? I remembered being offered a beer during my last church function. I accepted said drink. Did I sin?
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zaffiroborant
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Cat
Guest
I would definitely modify my behavior when I am with others who are likely to be offended by my normal behavior.
E.g., last week I played organ at the Latin Mass parish in my city. I wore a dress (I only own two dresses), and I wore a veil.
I don’t happen to know anyone who considers a woman going out alone scandalous, but if I lived in a place where such people lived (e.g., the Amish?), I would follow their social convention.
As for the meat and Hindus–one of my friends is a Hindu from India, and she has no objection to meat and the killing of animals–just not the sacred cows. Hinduism is a huge religion that encompasses many beliefs–my friend tells me that it’s perfectly acceptable for Hindus to worship Jesus.
Here’s what I do–I take each Hindu friend’s preferences on an individual basis–if I am attending a function or a social affair, I ask–what should I wear? Is there something I should avoid eating, drinking, discussing? I try to not cause offense. From what I have seen of those who practice Hinduism, they are very accommodating and loving and are not easily offended.
I think we need to follow Mother Teresa’s example-when she lived in Calcutta, she lived as the native people lived. She wore what they wore, and ate very little.
I think it is a good thing to try to accommodate others. The Bible doesn’t teach us to be “true to ourselves”–I think that this teaching comes from Hollywood and secularism. (Right now, Chase Bank has a promotional campaign out about “just be you.”) The Bible teaches us to love one another, to the point where we are willing to give up our very lives for someone else.
As long as I am not being asked or expect to sin, I can accommodate others. It’s a way of demonstrating God’s love to them.
I think that there are people who can drink without harming themselves or others, and they SHOULD drink, because they provide others with an example of how God’s creation can be enjoyed without abuse.
When you think about it, all sin is simply of twisting or distortion of something that is good. E.g., sex was created by God and it is good when used in its proper context (marriage between a man and woman), but humans twist something good until it becomes sinful.
Same for alcohol. I concede that it was created by God (the process of fermentation), and when used properly (whatever that is), it is good. But so many people, especially in the U.S., misuse alcohol and then it becomes a sinful practice. For me, there is so much “twisting” of alcohol use and the results of that twisting are so very very devastating, that it is very difficult for me to see any good in it.
So if you can use alcohol without sinning, by all means do so, because it is a demonstration to a sinful world and to people like ME of God’s goodness, just like marriage is supposed to be a picture of Christ and His Church.
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rcwitness
Guest
I mentioned 'of age" one time to my knowledge. I didn’t mean much by it, other than this is the guidelines in a circumstance of a beer tent.
This is an instruction from the Apostle towards the actual abuse of a Sacrament. We really can’t compare the celebration of the Eucharist in Mass to a festival. He makes no restrictions on the community freely choosing to drink alcohol, but those who are abusing the Lord’s supper. Remember, the passover meal Which Jesus shared during the Lord’s Supper required not one glass of wine, but three, I believe. There was alcohol consumption at the most holy Sacrament.
Most places have an acceptable amount of alcohol you can consume and drive. No one is encouraged to drink too much and drive. The duration of a festival is plenty of time to wait after a few beers and drink water, or eat food and then be able to drive home in a safe and sober condition. Everyone keeps bringing out the possibility of abuse, when this is up to individuals to follow their moral conscience and friends to assist if someone has drank too much to drive. Is anyone posting against alcohol use in faith community events here claiming they have seen a number of abuses going on in their experience? I haven’t.
So, you are demanding we give up drinking within legal and Church approved responsibility just to prove we don’t have a problem? You do not have that right, nor is it respectfull of other’s rights.
Again, what gives you the right to say casual drinking is wrong? Jesus said He Himself came freely eating and drinking.
Who decided this rule? This is your tradition. It may be good, but not to impose or make judgement on others for not adhering to.
The Church makes profits from selling the alcohol, in order to support the festival. Monks sell craft beers to make a living.
You are going to an extreme that steps way outside biblical Teaching
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JamesCollins
Guest
So do you think the festivals would not be supported if alcohol wasn’t available?
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Brendan_64
Guest
And where is the basis in scripture for this? Are you also going to argue that it is scandalous for women to go into bars without a male member of their family there to act as a chaperone? Are groups of female friends who go out together to enjoy a couple of drinks also causing scandal?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
So the church shouldn’t provide food? What?
Then lets ban parking lots and increase bike racks.
Of course. If you can’t control yourself around alcohol, women, food, tv, money, and other addictions, you’ve got a problem.
What’s wrong with casual drinking?
How so?
The church should also forgo buying vehicles (can cause accident), trimming the grass (waste), buying coffee (waste), upgrading the building (what for), and more.
There were a few reasons given: fundraiser, casual setting, fine enjoyment for adults, etc.
I personally prefer that women cover their heads in Church, men cover their arms and lower extremities, the priest wear a zuchetto or other headgear, the kids all sit quietly except to pray out loud, the music be a capella and according to Tradition, that there were no pews, that all the hours were recited publically, that the building were open 24/7, that protestants were all baptized at least conditionally when entering the Church, that the Orthodox and we were in Full Communion, that protestantism did not exist and everyone were Catholic and much more – I find it scandalous that it isn’t this way, please everyone, stop scandalizing me.
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rcwitness
Guest
Im sure there would be ways, yes. I was answering the statement that the Church has better things to spend its money on than beer. It actually raises more money. The festival is made better. They can also use the money to hire a band.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I think you are incorrect, Protestantism is a mixed bag, no two alike. The one church you were with may be complete opposite of another and both call themselves “evangelical”, “protestant” and/or anything else:
Greenbelt Festival in England:
npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/11/03/242359207/5-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-god-and-beer
First Friday, Warsaw Community Church:
wccconnect.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/first-friday-may-3-2012/
Christ Community Church, Beer and Bible:
christcommunitylansing.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=19
Kentwood Community Church:
kentwoodcommunitychurch.com/default.aspx?p=83955&beid=117989
The Plymouth Church: metrowestdailynews.com/article/20140326/News/140327067
Calvary Lutheran, Texas:
foxnews.com/us/2013/11/12/texas-church-attracts-new-followers-with-beer/
Meanwhile, this dude says “no alcohol please” at the church fest, but pulls shenanigans like this: wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html
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Cat
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I was not part of “one church.” Most Evangelical Protestants do some “church hopping,” and my husband and I were no exceptions.
I grew up in the Conference Baptist denomination and played piano for a United Brethren Church (and attended United Brethren summer camp), and from there went to college and was part of the Christian church/Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ (Campbellites), then moved south and joined a Southern Baptist Church for two years, then quit that church and joined a Christian and Missionary Alliance (C and MA) Church for ten years, then moved back up north and tried to start a C and MA church (failed), went to a Reformed Church in America (which is NOT considered “Evangelical”), and then tried my childhood Conference Baptist Church, and then quit in disgust to attend an Evangelical Free Church in America for the last 7 years of our Protestant lives.
My husband grew up in the Assemblies of God, and since we started dating as young teens, I spent quite a bit of time in his church, too.
So I’ve been around the Evangelical Protestant world in many different denominations.
In the U.S., “Evangelical Protestant” refers to a movement that encompasses certain churches who have aligned themselves with that movement.
The churches that you listed are NOT considered Evangelical Protestant, and they would tell you in no uncertain terms that they are most definitely NOT and never will be part of the Evangelical Protestant movement! They would say that they are “evangelical” in their ministry, in the sense that they are preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But they are not part of the Evangelical movement, and they have nothing to do with the National Association of Evangelicals.
Check out this list of churches/denominations who are members of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE): nae.net/membership/current-members
Now some of the churches in this list would be considered “Evangelical Protestant.” As I said, there are signs that Evangelical Protestants are relaxing their stance against alcohol. I’m not surprised to hear that the Willowcreek organization is behind the Christ Community Church in Lansing–this is a huge megachurch organization (twenty thousand “seekers” every Sunday, and the actual “members” attend church throughout the week, not on Sunday). They are headquartered in wealthy Barrington, IL, a Chicago suburb. The message of abstinence would not be appealing to the people in that area of Chicago.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Everything you describe when you talk about thinking of the other is when you attend their events you conform to their culture. What you and Bart have suggested through this thread is that Catholics conform their events to the possibility of offending others.
By the way I have know a few Hindus who never said anything about meat for months, but after knowing them and holding some longer conversations (ironically at a bar/restaurant) found they, underneath the well mannered ignoring of it, were very uncomfortable with the idea of eating meat.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I lived in the Chicago northwestern suburbs for years, Barrington is is a NW burb, and were plenty of people who abstained from alcohol, not all for moral reasons. Growing up there I don’t remember ever seeing any of the moms in the neighborhood drinking alcohol at any of the neighborhood get-togethers. Not all of the dad’s were drinking either. In high school I had a few friends who attended churches that forbid alcohol. Over all the area is no more or less amenable to abstinence than any other large metropolitan area.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I thought Baptists were the staunchest anti-alcohol denomination around (the denomination, not individual members)… seems they can go to an event serving alcohol and publicize/perform/evangelize/whatever, but can’t host one??
delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2014/05/18/food-festival-fantastic-conclusion/9268395/
First Christian Church, Portland, Oregon, Disciples of Christ:
npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/11/03/242301642/to-stave-off-decline-churches-attract-new-members-with-beer
Campbellite on Beer:
stonedcampbelldisciple.com/2009/01/09/beer-the-bible-what-the-bible-really-says-about-it/
A very interesting perspective, One Big, Happy, Lie: Southern Baptists, Alcohol and Me:
internetmonk.com/archive/one-big-happy-lie-southern-baptists-alcohol-and-me
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JamesCollins
Guest
I see a big difference between a church hosting an event with alcohol and attending a non-church event where alcohol is present. I think the staunchest anti-alcohol denomination is the United Methodist denomination. Their social principles specifically condemn alcohol:
umc.org/what-we-believe/the-social-community#alcohol-drugs
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SyroMalankara
Guest
There’s the propaganda, and the reality:
events.jsonline.com/north_little_rock_ar/events/show/353594923-2nd-annual-arkansas-times-craft-beer-festival
[mounta(name removed by moderator)arkbeerfestival.com/](http://www.mounta(name removed by moderator)arkbeerfestival.com/)
jamestownnews.com/news/lifestyles/article_c366d674-e5c4-11e3-bf78-001a4bcf887a.html
greenportvillage.com/venue/greenport-united-methodist-church-624-main-street-market-lot-on-1st-street/
christumcdeerfield.org/events/event/123/wine-tasting-and-tasty-bites/2013-007-26
zvents.com/punta_gorda_fl/events/show/368500351-new-odyssey
Have any of these been booted or disciplined for ignoring the “strong stance”?
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JamesCollins
Guest
That’s depressing.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
They are the hosts of the various Wine/Cheese, Beer festivals, and they sell tickets to it for money. Why does it matter whether its on their premises or a rented space?
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JamesCollins
Guest
I agree. They are wrong if they are not listening to their church discipline. But there are some Methodists who perform gay marriages in violation of their church’s stance as well.
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