Protestants and Mary

[Gottle_of_Geer]

First point well taken, poor statement on my part. As for the second, I have talked to many Christians - among them Fundamentalists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, who view the Blessed Mother in the context of her being only a “vessel” that would allow the Savior to be born. She is held in no higher esteem than that!

…

**They say “vessel” almost certainly because they are thinking of the Biblical usage of the word. **​

• Paul was the “vessel of election”, the “chosen vessel” of Christ - Acts 9.15
• Paul speaks of “vessels of honour” and “vessels of dishonour”, that is, of people as used by God for those purposes, in Romans 9
• skeuos, “vessel”, means either “body” or “wife” (or both) in another of his letters.

**If the Biblical background & use of the word were appreciated, I think the offence the use of it gives would vanish, or be greatly weakened. **

---

**The background in Romans 9, and perhaps in all these cases, is Jeremiah 18, where Jeremiah watches a potter at work with clay making pots: **

• 1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
• 2 Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.
• 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel.
• 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
• 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
• 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does? declares the LORD. Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
• 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed,
• 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
• 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
• 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for
• 11 Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’
• 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
• 13Therefore this is what the LORD says:
• Enquire among the nations: Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has been done by Virgin Israel.
• 14 Does the snow of Lebanon ever vanish from its rocky slopes? Do its cool waters from distant sources ever cease to flow?
• 15 Yet my people have forgotten me; they burn incense to worthless idols, which made them stumble in their ways and in the ancient paths. They made them walk in bypaths and on roads not built up.
• 16 Their land will be laid waste, an object of lasting scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads.
• 17 Like a wind from the east, I will scatter them before their enemies; I will show them my back and not my face in the day of their disaster.

18They said, Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest will not be lost, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says…

• [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 18&version=NIVUK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 18&version=NIVUK)

The chapter & the metaphor emphasise the sovereignty and purpose of God - God is in charge. This is certainly true of God’s dealings with “the handmaid of the Lord” (Luke 1). Just as it is true of His action in turning Saul of Tarsus from evil to His service.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is there any higher calling than to be a vessel of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not!!!​

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.​

Ro 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

2Ti 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.​

…

 

[leighfus]

You might also be interested in A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary by Charles Dickson. Dickson is (or was – I don’t know if he is still living) a Lutheran pastor who seeks to encourage better understanding between Protestant and Catholics about Mary. From the book’s back cover:

I believe I answered the question in its entirety. I will base my faith on the Word of God. It seems to me that many people would rather listen to the books of man than trust in what God has given us. This saddens me. I’m sure it saddens our Savior as well… God gave us the Bible so that we would know the truth in a world that is full of lies, deception, and power hungry men. Jesus said, “Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.” (Matthew 20:25-27). The Catholic faith clearly missed this verse considering that they are lovers of power (ex. pope, bishop, cardinal, priest). If the Catholic faith encouraged the reading of the Bible maybe their would be no need for these forums and so many people that are close to God already would know the truth. I have attended several Mass’s and there were no Bibles to be found in the church. Isn’t that odd?.. The Bible tells us that we are to meditate on the Word daily. Do this and I promise you you will have less questions.

In Christian Love,
Leigh

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If the Catholic faith encouraged the reading of the Bible

The Catholic faith does encourage the reading of the Bible. In fact when I went through RCIA a Bible was one of the Church’s gifts to me.

maybe their would be no need for these forums and so many people that are close to God already would know the truth.

Yes because we have seen how reading the Bible has never ever lead to any questions

What ever was the Ethiopian in Acts thinking when he asked Philip a question after reading the Bible?
*
"Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”** And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?”*** Acts 8:30-31

I have attended several Mass’s and there were no Bibles to be found in the church. Isn’t that odd?..

All this tells me is that either you have never been to a Mass or if you have you were not paying attention. First Scripture is read in the Catholic Church… Faith comes by what? What is heard?

*“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.” * Rom 10:17

Secondly, our Scripture readings can be found in our Missals.

God bless

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

The Catholic faith does encourage the reading of the Bible. In fact when I went through RCIA a Bible was one of the Church’s gifts to me.

Yes because we have seen how reading the Bible has never ever lead to any questions

What ever was the Ethiopian in Acts thinking when he asked Philip a question after reading the Bible?
*
"Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”** And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?”*** Acts 8:30-31

All this tells me is that either you have never been to a Mass or if you have you were not paying attention. First Scripture is read in the Catholic Church… Faith comes by what? What is heard?

*“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.” * Rom 10:17

Secondly, our Scripture readings can be found in our Missals.

God bless

Ask 1000 people in a Catholic Mass what was explained during the mass and I guarantee that you will only find 10 or so that truly understand what is being said and that would be because he or she studied the dogmatic verses of the CCC.

The CCC is another interpretation of the Word of God plain and simple. Those are the rules you must follow to be a Catholic. You can only except their interpretation.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Ask 1000 people in a Catholic Mass what was explained during the mass and I guarantee that you will only find 10 or so that truly understand what is being said and that would be because he or she studied the dogmatic verses of the CCC.

That is rather presumptuous of you. Have you done this or are you just making a generalized judgment? Have you done the same thing with mainline Protestants to see their level of competency?

The CCC is another interpretation of the Word of God plain and simple.

Fine but so is your faith tradition.

God bless

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

That is rather presumptuous of you. Have you done this or are you just making a generalized judgment? Have you done the same thing with mainline Protestants to see their level of competency?

Fine but so is your faith tradition.

God bless

That is not scientific numbers by any means…and for protestants they are just as guilty…

sitting with itchy ears week after week…“tell me again how I’m saved?”…“if I do this…how will god prosper me?”

In hindsight, that was rude of me to say and you have taken a much higher road to bless me brother…

I bless you back…

I’m learning to tame this serpent tongue that often speaks without my hearty accord…I’ve come along way…back in the day I would use my tongue to spray venon like a Tony Montana machine gun style…lol

Love is my conduit…Love man…Love…

 

[elvisman]

I believe I answered the question in its entirety. I will base my faith on the Word of God. It seems to me that many people would rather listen to the books of man than trust in what God has given us. This saddens me. I’m sure it saddens our Savior as well… God gave us the Bible so that we would know the truth in a world that is full of lies, deception, and power hungry men. Jesus said, “Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.” (Matthew 20:25-27). The Catholic faith clearly missed this verse considering that they are lovers of power (ex. pope, bishop, cardinal, priest). If the Catholic faith encouraged the reading of the Bible maybe their would be no need for these forums and so many people that are close to God already would know the truth. I have attended several Mass’s and there were no Bibles to be found in the church. Isn’t that odd?.. The Bible tells us that we are to meditate on the Word daily. Do this and I promise you you will have less questions.

In Christian Love,
Leigh

WRONG - as usual, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.

One of the official titles of the pope is the Servant of the Servants of God. In short - he has not placed himself above - but LAST among the servants of God.

As for Bibles in Catholics Churches, we have the Missal, which is filled with the Scriptures. In a 3-year period, we read the Bible virtually from cover to cover.

Don’t come here spewing false accusations. If you really love the word of God - then practice what you preach and stop bearing false witness.

PS - The Bible also tells us that unless we eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood we have no life within us - and you ain’t doin’ it.

 

[elvisman]

The CCC is another interpretation of the Word of God plain and simple. Those are the rules you must follow to be a Catholic. You can only except their interpretation.

**Actually, you’re wrong. **
For 1500 years - it was virtually the ONLY interpretation.
It wasn’t until the Protestant revolt that the many confusing splinter sects were founded - all claiming to have the “truth”.

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

WRONG - as usual, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.

One of the official titles of the pope is the Servant of the Servants of God. In short - he has not placed himself above - but LAST among the servants of God.

As for Bibles in Catholics Churches, we have the Missal, which is filled with the Scriptures. In a 3-year period, we read the Bible virtually from cover to cover.

Don’t come here spewing false accusations. If you really love the word of God - then practice what you preach and stop bearing false witness.

PS - The Bible also tells us that unless we eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood we have no life within us - and you ain’t doin’ it.

Why don’t you bow to the blood as you do to the Eucharist?

I refuse the Eucharist…do I have life in me?

Isn’t it the comforter sufficient?
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[elvisman]

Why don’t you bow to the blood as you do to the Eucharist?

I refuse the Eucharist…do I have life in me?

Isn’t it the comforter sufficient?
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

WHO doesn’t bow to the Blood. I most certainly do - as ALL Catholics are supposed to.

You say, “I refuse the Eucharist” and ask, "Do I have life in me?"
**That is for God to judge - not me. **
I can only tell you what he said about people who claim to follow him yet refuse his truth:

*"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. *
***Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ ***
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ Matt. 7:21-23

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

WHO doesn’t bow to the Blood. I most certainly do - as ALL Catholics are supposed to.

You say, “I refuse the Eucharist” and ask, “Do I have life in me?”
That is for God to judge - not me.
I can only tell you what he said about people who claim to follow him yet refuse his truth:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
***Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ ***
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ Matt. 7:21-23

Your reference to the above scripture refers to what you think may become of me. I respect that

Revelation 9
20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Do you worship something that can not see, hear, nor walk?

 

[elvisman]

Your reference to the above scripture refers to what you think may become of me. I respect that

Revelation 9
20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Do you worship something that can not see, hear, nor walk?

Not any idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood.
NOPE - only the flesh & blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

**You’re speaking of 2 different things - God and idols. **

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Thank you Elvisman!

 

[elvisman]

Thank you Elvisman!

No problemo, lil_flower!
We’ve gotta get the truth out there, especially when there are those who spread falsehoods about Christ’s Church.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

No problemo, lil_flower!
We’ve gotta get the truth out there, especially when there are those who spread falsehoods about Christ’s Church.

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN]

 

[wwolverine]

Mary was a special woman. We can learn a lot from her if we pay attention to what she said and how she responded to the situations in her life. Outside Jesus, I think she is one of those we should look to as an example of how to respond when life throws us ‘curves’.​

However, she was chosen out from among all of us. She was not better than we are. She was a sinner.​

Have you ever looked at the Scriptures telling us how Jesus interacted with Mary? At least twice her, speaking to her, called her woman not mother (or mom). Once when He was brought news that His mothers and brothers had come to see Him, He responded saying, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”​

Maybe Jesus knew that people would one day misunderstand Mary’s role and make her out to be a person not intended by God. My guess is that Mary, if she’s paying attention to us from Heaven, cringes when she is exalted by us. I’ll bet she says, “NO, DON"T look to me, look to my Son. I’m just like you; I’ve needed saving and my Son saved me for all that calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. I called upon Him. Will you?”

Dear Dokimas

In our Holy Bible, there are few miraculous births, like Issac was born when Abraham and Sarah were too old to bear children, same goes with Samson, John the Baptist and Our Mother Mary too was born under Miraculous circumstances.

I believe all these births were for a reason and God wanted them to be so. If you look in the holy Bible, the word of God was carried in an Ark specially built in the way God wanted it, and I bet Mother Mary too was as pure as the Ark as she was to bear the Word in her womb. By our saying things which make Mother Mary just a simple person, is like touching the Ark, and you see what happened to Uzza when he touched the ark?

1 Chronicles chapter 13: 9-10 says

13:9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled.

13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

Wolverine.

 

[Radical]

Hi Wwolverine,

If you look in the holy Bible, the word of God was carried in an Ark specially built in the way God wanted it, and I bet Mother Mary too was as pure as the Ark as she was to bear the Word in her womb. By our saying things which make Mother Mary just a simple person, is like touching the Ark, and you see what happened to Uzza when he touched the ark?

I think your comment is a good example of why Protestants think the Venerators go too far. For us to suggest that Mary is sinful just like the rest of us, is apparently (in your HO) a form of blaspheme that would anger God to the point of wanting to kill us on the spot. That sort of elevation of her amounts (IMHO) to making her a god of sorts. The only way of salvaging that declaration of yours is, if Mary was in fact, actually sinless…but as you have probably gathered, most of us Protestants don’t think such was the case. So there is the impasse, you think we blaspheme Mary and we think you excessively venerate/worship her. If we Protestants are correct and Mary wasn’t sinless, can’t hear or respond to our prayers, doesn’t and can’t intercede or mediate on our behalf and has no continued role in our salvation then what the Venerators do is wrong, very wrong. On the other hand, if the Catholics are right and Mary is all that and more then what us Non-Venerators do is less than what it should be…but I wouldn’t be sure that it amounts to such a grevious blaspheme

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Hi Wwolverine,

I think your comment is a good example of why Protestants think the Venerators go too far. For us to suggest that Mary is sinful just like the rest of us, is apparently (in your HO) a form of blaspheme that would anger God to the point of wanting to kill us on the spot. That sort of elevation of her amounts (IMHO) to making her a god of sorts. The only way of salvaging that declaration of yours is, if Mary was in fact, actually sinless…but as you have probably gathered, most of us Protestants don’t think such was the case. So there is the impasse, you think we blaspheme Mary and we think you excessively venerate/worship her. If we Protestants are correct and Mary wasn’t sinless, can’t hear or respond to our prayers, doesn’t and can’t intercede or mediate on our behalf and has no continued role in our salvation then what the Venerators do is wrong, very wrong. On the other hand, if the Catholics are right and Mary is all that and more then what us Non-Venerators do is less than what it should be…but I wouldn’t be sure that it amounts to such a grevious blaspheme

I’m sorry, friend, but I only worship the One, True God of Heaven and Earth. Our Lady, however, has played an important role in my life, and she will help me get to Heaven to see Him one day.

O Mary conceived without sin; pray for us.
Father, shine Your light on those who deeply need it!

 

[Radical]

I’m sorry, friend, but I only worship the One, True God of Heaven and Earth.

It all depends on the definition of “worship” that is used…by your definition, you are no doubt correct, but I think that it is possible for “veneration” to cross a line by way of quantity and/or by way of quality. If it has feathers and web feet, both swims and flies and also quacks, it doesn’t matter if you (or I) want to call it a chicken or not, it is still a duck…it is a question of substance and is independent of what label is placed on it.

Our Lady, however, has played an important role in my life, and she will help me get to Heaven to see Him one day.

and not surprisingly we disagree on this matter too…