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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Let’s make that less confusing: chickens and ducks are quite different. The way I look at God is *quite *different than the way I look at Mary. Nothing in between.
No, not surprising at all.
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E
elvisman
Guest
**Well, blasphemy usually refers to violations against God. Protestants ****don’t **blaspheme when it comes to Mary, so much as they show an abject disrespect for her.
Much of what the Church believes about Mary is implicitly taught and not explicitly mentioned – but the same can be said for the Trinity
**The problem with the 21st Century Protestant views on Mary is that they developed over time out of contempt for the Church – not because they weren’t revealed truths. For example, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli ALL venerated Mary as a sinless, perpetual virgin. They knew that this was necessary for her to fulfill her role in salvation history. **
Just as symbols of God’s Word were **contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word- in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the Old Testament Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled, how much more pure and undefiled would the vessel that actually carried God have to be? **
The Reformers knew this – but the 21st Century Protestant rejects it.
**The Early Church Fathers were unanimous in their teachings on Mary and veneration of her as a sinless, perpetual virgin. These are men that were put to death because of their adherence to their Catholic faith. **
Tell me something, Radical:
**What was the motive for the Early Christians to teach falsehoods?
Why were they willing to die for their Christian beliefs if it was all a sham?”
So, you ARE right – we ARE at an impasse. But, not because the Church has it wrong about Mary – but because of spiritual pride from the divorce that is Protestantism.
21st Century Protestants charge that it doesn’t matter who gave birth to Jesus. Many of you say that Jesus could have been born from anybody and still been the Messiah - he could have even been born of a harlot and it wouldn’t have mattered.
**Yes, Jesus could have been born of a harlot – but in order to fulfill all righteousness, his coming had to be more glorious than the Old Testament type. He chose Mary out of ALL of the women in history to be his mother.
New Testament fulfillments of types found in the Old Testament are more glorious and perfect than the type itself. This rule of Scripture is withoutexception.
R
Radical
Guest
First, the author of Revelation would not have been looking at the angel (that he twice tried to “worship”) as if that angel was God. He would have looked at that angel in a quite different way, yet he was told to stop. As such, I don’t think the matter is as simple and clean as you suggest.
Second, please recall that what started this last little exchange was Wwolverine’s comment that to not give Mary her due respect is a very grave offense. To not give God his due respect is a very grave offense. However, is it such a grave offense to not give the apostle Paul his due respect? (When Paul claimed that he should be recognized as an apostle, I don’t recall that he claimed their failure to do so was a grave sin). As such, I see Wwolverine’s attitude as treating Mary less like one treats man and treating her more like one treats God.
Third, if the CC’s teaching about Mary is correct, then she is in a class all by herself and hyperdulia is appropriate. If, however, the CC has erred in its claims wrt Mary, then she isn’t in a class all by herself and the distinctions between dulia and hyperdulia and between latria and hyperdulia are both wrong…Only dulia and latria would be proper and in most cases (what is called) hyperdulia would be either excessive dulia or latria. As such, I would suggest that the correctness of your denial of any worship of Mary rests on the validity of the CC’s claims wrt Mary and wrt hyperdulia…and we know how we each view those claims.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Radical, how does Wolverine “elevate” Mary to god status by stating that she is like the Ark? So that makes the Ark a god?
And we “worshipped” the Ark? No, the Ark was Holy, Consecrated by God, and set apart from stain by human contact. That’s about it. So what in Wolverine’s post made you make the leap you did in this post of yours?
“Don’t touch it” does not mean “Don’t touch it because it’s a god”.
Wolverine doesn’t elevate Mary to god status, you do in your own mind.
That’s idol worship. We don’t see Mary as a god, so therefor it’s impossible for us to be worshipping her as such. If there are those that do, they will be punished accordingly. But the Church does not teach this nor does it tolerate it.
Blessings,
HC
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Radical
Guest
see my last post to lil_flower_luvRadical, how does Wolverine “elevate” Mary to god status by stating that she is like the Ark? So that makes the Ark a god?
Bless you.
W
wwolverine
Guest
Dear Radical, I believe you have misunderstood somewhere my comments and that is the biggest problem with protestantism and other smaller sects that have creped in Christianity. Some sects even stomp on the pictures of Mother Mary inorder to show their alliance to such groups.
Well I dont know if you are aware that Mother mary was born to already old parents ie St Joaquim and St Anna, and she was a Miracle child. And she was chosen by God and even mentioned in the book of Genesis.I hope you have read it. So If God had planned her so well in advancee than that makes her very special woman.
She is not God as you have written in your comments misunderstanding mine. And we Catholics do respect her very much.
Wolverine
H
happilycatholic
Guest
You’ve not heard of blasphemy? You don’t have to be speaking of God Himself to commit blasphemy. And yes, I believe blasphemy is a sin and since the Church considers Mary sacred, anything uttered about her impiously could be considered blasphemy.
That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
HC
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Follow_Yeshua
Guest
I’m not speaking of two things. When you bow down to a wooden,golden, brass or stone icon or anything made of your hands you do not see them as God because I was a Catholic and I did the same thing. For you know that there is only one God and so do I. All I’m saying is many times in the Word God proclaims that if it can’t move, see, hear or talk…why would you bow to it?
I have never seen blood adoration but I’ve seen Eucharistic adoration with a rotation of laymen and women to guard it. Have you seen the blood guarded?
So I ask again, can the Eucharist walk or talk? That was my question since you referenced the scripture that will be many to be judged by Christ and he will disown them to their faces.
E
elvisman
Guest
If you WERE a Catholic - and were prostrating yourself before images, you didn’t learn that from the Church. Don’t blame the Church for your mistakes.
By the way - did the Ark of the covenant “move, see hear, walk or talk”?
If not, then WHY did the Jews prostrate themselves before it (Joshua 7:6)?
The Eucharist - in BOTH species - is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just because you’ve never seen something doesn’t make it untrue.
**Again - the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. **Have you ever seen God the Father walk or talk?
Secondly, the passage in Revelation was speaking specifically of those who lived through the time of tribulation.
R
Radical
Guest
No, they developed b/c it became obvious that the CC and the Orthodox Church were not free of error…this led to a greater review of various doctrines and the support for them
IMHO the views wrt Mary became ever grander for the same reason that certain Venerators today want to elevate her to co-redemptrix…
H
happilycatholic
Guest
No, you are totally missing the entire meaning of worship as expressed in the Commandment.
It says, “You shall take no other Gods before Me”.
Period. That’s what God calls worship and that’s what it is. It doesn’t matter how we or webster or anyone else defines it.
Unless we look upon Mary as THE GOD of Heaven or some kind of lesser god, we are not worshipping Mary. Veneration is veneration, not worship.
Blessings,
HC
H
happilycatholic
Guest
It doesn’t matter that the Eucharist doesn’t walk or talk. It doesn’t matter what it appears to do as we understand it. It is what the Eucharist is and what it can do. Since after it is consencrated, it is the Body and Blood of Christ, I suppose the Holy Spirit could move in whatever way He so chooses.
Because the Holy Spirit doesn’t move in front of you, do you not believe? Does He need to make Himself known by talking to you or materializing in front of you for you to believe?
Why do you hold this standard for our Savior?
Blessings,
HC
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elvisman
Guest
If the Reformers were wrong about Mary – what makes you think they weren’t wrong about everything else. You have to resort to relativism to accept these 2 paradoxical elements.
If you’re referring to the Protoevangelium of James (AD 150) – prove that this is a heretical document. Your skeptecism doesn’t render anything heretical.
I didn’t say that they were killed for specific beliefs – although belief in the Real Presence was one of the reasons they were martyred – being accused of cannibalism.
**I asked:
What was the motive for the Early Christians to teach falsehoods?
Why were they willing to die for their Christian beliefs if it was all a sham?
Again – answer the questions I asked without dancing around them.
C
CWBetts
Guest
I know I am coming in late on the discussion, but I would like to get back to the Blessed Virgin. I am Catholic, but I do come from a fundamentalist background that brought Mary out at Christmas, and put her back in a box for the rest of the year. This is not near the respect Our Blessed Mother deserves. Forgive me if I repeat other responses, but I have limited time this afternoon, and I did not read every post.
-To suggest that Jesus showed Mary anything less than the utmost respect is ludicrous. To say otherwise would make Jesus guilty of the fourth commandment “Honor your father and mother”
-To suggest that Mary’s need of the Saviour runs counter to the dogma of the Immaculate conception is a misunderstanding of the dogma. Mary did need a Saviour, and she was saved, albeit preemptively. She was saved from sin in the womb. This was necessary because in order for Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, to bring Jesus into the world, she must be made pure. This was done via the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived without sin. God can do that if He wishes, can he not? Mary was not the only one brought into the world without sin. I can think of two others, other than Jesus. Adam and Eve were not created with the stain of original sin. Mary is the New Eve. The New Testament fulfillment is always greater than the Old Testament type. Eve’s “No” to God was undone by Mary’s “Yes”. Does salvation come through Mary? No, but she cooperated in salvation history.
-With a literal sibling meaning of “brother” and “sister” we run into a serious problem. If “brother” must mean sibling, then Mary not only was not ever-virgin, she must have been ever-pregnant. Let me explain. In Acts chapter one we read (RSV-CE, emphasis mine):
*12: Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away;
13: and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
14: All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15: In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
/I]
Lets think about this. There were 120 people there. We can eliminate eleven as brothers of Jesus, for the Apostles. Mary and the women weren’t brothers either so how many was that 10? I think thats fair. Maybe a little more. I’ll be generous and go with 20. So that accounts for 31 of 120. That leaves in the neighborhood of 90(!) that were “brothers” of Jesus! So I posit that “brother” did not necessarily mean blood siblings, but could jave also meant others from his family, or simply followers and brothers in spirit.
I do have more to write but alas, I must get back to work.*
-To suggest that Jesus showed Mary anything less than the utmost respect is ludicrous. To say otherwise would make Jesus guilty of the fourth commandment “Honor your father and mother”
-To suggest that Mary’s need of the Saviour runs counter to the dogma of the Immaculate conception is a misunderstanding of the dogma. Mary did need a Saviour, and she was saved, albeit preemptively. She was saved from sin in the womb. This was necessary because in order for Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, to bring Jesus into the world, she must be made pure. This was done via the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived without sin. God can do that if He wishes, can he not? Mary was not the only one brought into the world without sin. I can think of two others, other than Jesus. Adam and Eve were not created with the stain of original sin. Mary is the New Eve. The New Testament fulfillment is always greater than the Old Testament type. Eve’s “No” to God was undone by Mary’s “Yes”. Does salvation come through Mary? No, but she cooperated in salvation history.
-With a literal sibling meaning of “brother” and “sister” we run into a serious problem. If “brother” must mean sibling, then Mary not only was not ever-virgin, she must have been ever-pregnant. Let me explain. In Acts chapter one we read (RSV-CE, emphasis mine):
*12: Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away;
13: and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
14: All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15: In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
/I]
Lets think about this. There were 120 people there. We can eliminate eleven as brothers of Jesus, for the Apostles. Mary and the women weren’t brothers either so how many was that 10? I think thats fair. Maybe a little more. I’ll be generous and go with 20. So that accounts for 31 of 120. That leaves in the neighborhood of 90(!) that were “brothers” of Jesus! So I posit that “brother” did not necessarily mean blood siblings, but could jave also meant others from his family, or simply followers and brothers in spirit.
I do have more to write but alas, I must get back to work.*
F
Follow_Yeshua
Guest
So now I didn’t learn much from the Church because I bowed down to images? And I was a renegade going against Rome?
So what did these men know?
fatimaconference.org/images/Collegial-Consecration.jpg
Apparently not as much as you. And I know you’ll explain this one away so I’m prepared.
You see you give the perception to your reading audience that people who bow to statues are wrong and didn’t learn that from the church. It’s just your twist on perception and reality.
Reality is
People do bow down to statues
That is Pope John Paul the II by the way.
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
If you want to truly follow Yeshua, you* get down on your knees* just like our Holy Father did!
Common sense, people!
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
Thank you CWBetts!
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Follow_Yeshua
Guest
You’ll have to throw me in a fiery pit because I won’t do that! Or chop my head off! Lol!
Lil Flower, I know you have great passion for what you believe and I respect that.
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
I respect your beliefs too. Though, you’d have to chop my head of as well, before I deny my sweet, blessed Mother the honor she deserves.
C
CWBetts
Guest
If you won’t bow down in front of a statue, that is OK. Not all of us do. And really, I can understand why. You feel that you may be crossing the line into idolatry. I suggest you pray for faith. God knows you only want to please Him, so he will, in time, give you the understanding that will allow you to honor Mary and all of the saints.
- Status