Protestants and Mary

[elvisman]

Hmmm then what renders ones salvation if one believes on the name of Jesus then I wonder? Okay you tell me who you are to agree with what these men say and talk about that convinces you to the understanding that what they say as factual? Agian that is a weak argument to pin it to me. You can clearly see that it is in no way shape or form presented as a factual ideology. Most of it is very subjective.

To you, faith is simple belief.
To the Church - faith is total surrender to God’s will - not just an intellectual ascent to a belief.

But agian I question this statement that says if you don’t have faith in the church then how can you render yourself Catholic. Is there something required of me in scripture other than believing that Jesus is lord who died, buried, rather raised from the dead and is now sitting at the right hand of the father. And that we should love our neighbors as ourselves and love God with all our hearts and minds?

Ummm . . . Baptism, for one (Acts 22:16, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).
The Body and Blood of Jesus, for another (John 6:31-70).

My issue with you is that you call yourself “Catholic” and you’re not. That makes you a liar who misrepresents the Church.

 

[Dokimas]

Oh - so NOW you’re saying that Paul was a Lone Ranger Apostle who had his *own *crew and own rules? That is patently ABSURD.
The apostles - Paul included - taught that they spoke as one and sent out presbyters as ONE.

Read Acts 15:23-26:
**"The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and origin: greetings. **
Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Reading again into what I’m saying something that’s not there nor intended. Isn’t that bearing false witness?

 

[Dokimas]

To you, faith is simple belief.
To the Church - faith is total surrender to God’s will - not just an intellectual ascent to a belief.

Ummm . . . Baptism, for one (Acts 22:16, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).
The Body and Blood of Jesus, for another (John 6:31-70).

My issue with you is that you call yourself "Catholic" and you’re not. That makes you a liar who misrepresents the Church.

I guess you decided it wasn’t time to get back to the topic: Protestants and Mary.

 

[elvisman]

I guess you decided it wasn’t time to get back to the topic: Protestants and Mary.

**Just answering your posts . . . **

 

[elvisman]

Reading again into what I’m saying something that’s not there nor intended. Isn’t that bearing false witness?

Again - just answering the points YOU made.

YOU’RE the one who implied that Paul was speaking on behalf of him and HIS followers and not the apostles in general - and I called you on it.

If that’s not what you meant - please explain yourself.

 

[Dokimas]

Again - just answering the points YOU made.

YOU’RE the one who implied that Paul was speaking on behalf of him and HIS followers and not the apostles in general - and I called you on it.

If that’s not what you meant - please explain yourself.

You said I was saying Paul was a lone ranger. That’s not what I said nor implied. I showed you that in Paul’s writings he often wrote with others, thus the ‘we’. Therefore, it seemed quite a stretch for you to say he was referring to the other church leaders, I guess you’d be thinking, as his authority.

 

[Dokimas]

Just answering your posts . . .

Actually you were answering someone else’s post (note #1204).

 

[Good_Fella]

As for infant baptism, doesn’t seem a good case can be made that anyone in the NT baptised anyone but those who chose to put faith in Jesus, thus old enough to decide for themselves.​

This thread isn’t about Protestants and baptism, so let’s stay on track. Anyway, many Protestants would disagree with you. So much for sola scriptura.

 

[Dokimas]

This thread isn’t about Protestants and baptism, so let’s stay on track. Anyway, many Protestants would disagree with you. So much for sola scriptura.

I’m so easily confused: why are you telling me about being off topic and you’ve said nothing to Elvis? The confusion continues as you scold me then stay off topic yourself. I’m still scratching my head.​

To stay on topic: Mary was a wonderful woman and a great example of faith in a sinner.

 

[elvisman]

Actually you were answering someone else’s post (note #1204).

No - I was answering yours as well.
But - at least Seraphim give answers, though wrong and poses questions, though ill-conceived. At least he contributes to the conversation.
I get nothing from you but vagueness, opinions and arrogance . . .

 

[Seraphim25]

To you, faith is simple belief.
To the Church - faith is total surrender to God’s will - not just an intellectual ascent to a belief.

Ummm . . . Baptism, for one (Acts 22:16, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).
The Body and Blood of Jesus, for another (John 6:31-70).

My issue with you is that you call yourself "Catholic" and you’re not. That makes you a liar who misrepresents the Church.

Don’t insult me with your venomous words! It is not up to you to question my place within the brotherhood of Christs body. Ones salvation is attained by ones own allegiance to Christ himself. If you deny this then you deny the words that came forth from God himself. All those who call upon my name shall be saved. and in another place any person who confesses with his own lips that Jesus is Lord will be saved. Granted there is more to it than just confessing one MUST walk it as well. However, I would rather show and prove my faith to my fellow brother rather than boast about what the church says you must do to abtain salvation. For Gods word is exquisitely clear on this that who ever believes and does the will of God shall never perish but inherit eternal Glory! Thanks and peace to the invisible God to the glory of his name!

 

[Seraphim25]

Also Elvis man it occurs to be too that one must have a personal relationship with Jesus and not just trusting in an institution. This conceitedness is what allowed Isreal to be led astray in let attacks from God in. Therefore, I have no ill content towards the Catholic church since I am myself a catholic. But being Catholic is once again a label and how do we define ourselves as Christians? I know we are all very passionate about our beliefs but in retro-spect it is really dog dung. Christ is all that really matters and how we reveal Jesus to other people is of utmost concern. Do we show love, respect, gratitude, go the extra mile in trying to serve Gods people, and at no cost to you in return. Most of the time I get criticized for being christian…I don’t need to be critized from my own brothers/sisters in Christ either. For we are called to build up the body of Christ and not tare it down.

Just as a master builder uses good cement for their structures we too should mold our lives on good cement and not stubble hay or mud that gets destroyed when the floods of life come in. I may have different views and opinions than lets say even other Catholics. But in reality what does it matter? what does it matter if Mary had other siblings or if Mary was a sinner like everybody else, does that affect ones faith? of course not because Jesus is salvation. And only he saves! Should it matter if one subscribes to all the teachings of the church or to one who questions/struggles with certian philosophies? No, of course not because Jesus is salvation.

Mary was indeed blessed amongst women because she gave birth to God incarnate. She helped raise God the best she could for what was given to her. Joseph was a good father for whatever time he had on Earth since he is only mentioned but a few times. Christ centerdness is what matters and how our relationship is with him.

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m so easily confused: why are you telling me about being off topic and you’ve said nothing to Elvis? The confusion continues as you scold me then stay off topic yourself. I’m still scratching my head.​

To stay on topic: Mary was a wonderful woman and a great example of faith in a sinner.

I’m telling you because you replied to me, not Elvis.

As for Mary, the angel Gabriel greeted her as “the one who was always perfectly and completely endowed with sanctifying and habitual grace” kecharitomene]. One cannot be in a state of sanctity and sinful at the same time. St. Paul defines grace as the antidote to sin (Rom 3:24; 5:15, 20; 6:14). The eminent privilege of the divine maternity established a relationship of nature, a relationship of consanguinity with Jesus Christ and one of affinity with the Trinity. By nature this relationship with God, who overshadowed Mary, is superior to our relationship with God as sons and daughters by adoption, which is merely spiritual and mystical (cf. Fr. E. Hugon, Marie, Pleine de Grace, 5th ed., 1926, p.63). Her relationship with God as the mother of His Only-begotten Son belongs to the Hypostatic Order which is higher than the order of glory and grace, being its cause. Thus Mary’s immaculate conception and personal sinlessness are a consequence of the divine maternity. God cannot tolerate sin, so Mary had to be sinless to be in such intimate union with God, whose Son she conceived and bore. Jesus is the son of both God the Father and Mary, so like the Divine Word in his sacred humanity, she had to be sinless. God’s close presence not only imparts, but also demands holiness of a person. The Scriptures make it clear (Ex3:5; Deut 23:14; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Jn 3:56).

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Seraphim25]

I’m telling you because you replied to me, not Elvis.

As for Mary, the angel Gabriel greeted her as “the one who was always perfectly and completely endowed with sanctifying and habitual grace” kecharitomene]. One cannot be in a state of sanctity and sinful at the same time. St. Paul defines grace as the antidote to sin (Rom 3:24; 5:15, 20; 6:14). The eminent privilege of the divine maternity established a relationship of nature, a relationship of consanguinity with Jesus Christ and one of affinity with the Trinity. By nature this relationship with God, who overshadowed Mary, is superior to our relationship with God as sons and daughters by adoption, which is merely spiritual and mystical (cf. Fr. E. Hugon, Marie, Pleine de Grace, 5th ed., 1926, p.63). Her relationship with God as the mother of His Only-begotten Son belongs to the Hypostatic Order which is higher than the order of glory and grace, being its cause. Thus Mary’s immaculate conception and personal sinlessness are a consequence of the divine maternity. God cannot tolerate sin, so Mary had to be sinless to be in such intimate union with God, whose Son she conceived and bore. Jesus is the son of both God the Father and Mary, so like the Divine Word in his sacred humanity, she had to be sinless. God’s close presence not only imparts, but also demands holiness of a person. The Scriptures make it clear (Ex3:5; Deut 23:14; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Jn 3:56).

PAX :tiphat:

Well, being the case that God never used a perfect person I am not following the connection with Mary too? So in saying this define then when Jesus calls all believers to the same glory that Christ has from the father? Jesus states that as the father gives his glory to the son the son shares his glory with those who are willing to believe.

Abraham, a sinner who was sanctified by his faith in believing God, David a sinner and made King of the house of Israel and was defined has a person who was after Gods own heart. Moses a sinner who became the vessel for redemption out of bondage at the hand of Eygpt. Paul a sinner who murdered christians who through a very powerful conversion to Christ and became a huge symbol for the Christian faith. All the prophets were sinners and yet God uses them. The ark of the covenant was made by sinners hands by the power of the one who ordered its construction (God) and yet the Glory and Majesty of his name was made known in it. Even if Mary is labeled as the new ark she was still created by sinful humankind and yet Gods Glory still over shadowed Mary.

My point is God uses sinners! For while we were still sinners God came to save mankind. We don’t deserve to be saved we didn’t do anything or even seem to want to be saved and yet and yet God still gave his only son so that through him humankind may be saved by his blood and sacrifice at calvery.

Even if Mary was born with Original sin that does NOT imply perfection or sinlessness. Paul states that ALL have sinned after the fall of Adam and Eve. Paul is not talking about personal sin but the original stain that every human being has ever since the fall. Cosnversley, Jesus fits in this point quite nicely to rescue us with no cause of our own or some how deserving it.Therefore, Mary was in the same pit of mud that we are all standing in before we submitted our lives to Jesus. If Mary was saved at conception because of her faith this is fine. But, Mary still needed a savior and she would still be considered a sinner by the natural order of how Adam and Eves fate ended up.

 

[benedictus2]

Thank you for your opinion and I guess the opinion of your church.

Not opinon but facts. No arguing with facts. They’re simply facts.

I will agree you have some history; your history just doesn’t seem to go back as far as you’d like.

Sorry but it does; There is no getting away from that. I know it grates doesn’t it .

You have no apparent Bible verses to back the specifics of what you believe about the Church Jesus founded.

Sad fact again for you but we do. Read Matthew 16.

Looks like we’re going round and round and round … again and again and again …

Only happens when you refuse to face facts and the truth. The debate was ended long ago. Many converts from all denominations have realized the truth. Much, much more erudite and learned men and women than you (and this is not to belittle your intellect in any way) but have fought the same thing. Fought the truth, fought the fact. But in the end facts and truth won.

I’m dizzy! How about you?

Loving it. Because I am not in the merry go round. Hop off and join me.

 

[fbl9]

Well, being the case that God never used a perfect person

is not Jesus Christ a perfect person?

. Even if Mary is labeled as the new ark she was still created by sinful humankind and yet Gods Glory still over shadowed Mary.

There in lies one of the things you don’t know about yourself,you weren’t created by your parents you were created by God…

. If Mary was saved at conception because of her faith this is fine. But, Mary still needed a savior and she would still be considered a sinner by the natural order of how Adam and Eves fate ended up.

honestly this last part makes no sense.unless you don’t beleive that it is through our baptism that we become adopted sons/daughters of God.Which you seem to be saying ;that only thing needed for one’s salvation is a bare faith.
the immaculate conception of Mary is saying she was saved from ever having original sin in the first place…that is how she could call God her savior she was saved from sin in the first place.

 

[benedictus2]

Part of what you say here is true: you are angry. I am not arrogant.** If anyone is arrogant it is those here that ‘know’ they are correct**. I know what I believe and I know I may be wrong. That’s not arrogance.

To know that one is correct does not mean one is arrogant. Arrogance is when one believes one is correct without reference to some outside authority to support that belief.

If I were to say that water is H2O and be very certain I am correct, it would not be arrogant for me to do so.

There are some areas where objective truth is knowable.

This is why the protestant religion IS arrogant. Because it stems from Luther’s arrogance. His arrogance in thinking that he (singularly) had a better grasp of truth than all those who came before him, the Fathers, Doctors and Saints fo the Church. THAT is arrogance.

And that same arrogance is displayed everytime a two bit pastor starts his own church. They always seem to know better than the rest.

Our claim to truth, we have not arrived at by ourselves.

Like those who claim that water is H2O we rely on authority other than our own pidly brains.

 

[benedictus2]

I have to say I was going to class today and on the way out of the blue I thought if God can count it righteous to Abraham and give His Salvation to King David why could not God do the same to Mary.

I am still rolling this around in my head, it was just so unusual because I wasn’t thinking about anything theological at the time I was thinking about Accounting.

Exactly! If God can create Adam sinless, He could do the same to Mary.

The Holy Spirit interrupting your train of thought there

 

[Seraphim25]

is not Jesus Christ a perfect person?There in lies one of the things you don’t know about yourself,you weren’t created by your parents you were created by God…honestly this last part makes no sense.unless you don’t beleive that it is through our baptism that we become adopted sons/daughters of God.Which you seem to be saying ;that only thing needed for one’s salvation is a bare faith.
the immaculate conception of Mary is saying she was saved from ever having original sin in the first place…that is how she could call God her savior she was saved from sin in the first place.

Truly, but even the early church fathers state that ALL who were born in this world (flesh) HAS the stain of sin, therefore those who are made by consecration of the espoused create a sinful nature.

Baptism is a beautiful experience however, Jesus himself demonstrates that being baptized by the Holy spirit is far more important. Consider when Peter was speaking to an immense crowed and as he was speaking the holy spirit filled up in them, also note without first being baptized by water. I am not saying one shouldn’t be baptized with water but it is far better to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. And yes to acquire the father and the son and the Holy Spirit one must first confess that Jesus is Lord…

 

[Seraphim25]

To know that one is correct does not mean one is arrogant. Arrogance is when one believes one is correct without reference to some outside authority to support that belief.

If I were to say that water is H2O and be very certain I am correct, it would not be arrogant for me to do so.

There are some areas where objective truth is knowable.

This is why the protestant religion IS arrogant. Because it stems from Luther’s arrogance. His arrogance in thinking that he (singularly) had a better grasp of truth than all those who came before him, the Fathers, Doctors and Saints fo the Church. THAT is arrogance.

And that same arrogance is displayed everytime a two bit pastor starts his own church. They always seem to know better than the rest.

Our claim to truth, we have not arrived at by ourselves.

Like those who claim that water is H2O we rely on authority other than our own pidly brains.

No, that this is called being prejudice …one who believes in something without full knowing the truth or bias. Arogance is being proud of ones ownself or haughty But hey I am not nit picking