Protestants and Mary

[lil_flower_luv]

Mary was Jesus’ Mother. What do mother’s do? They love us and care for us. Mary did the same for Jesus. And He made His mother our Mother. “Behold you Mother,” He told us. Can we all agree on this? Yes we can. But Jesus holds His mother on a pedestal; He gave her the graces to be born without sin. We honor her the way He does. We receive His favors through her. Just the way a mother works behind the scenes left unnoticed (prays on our behalf, works to care for our well-being, etc) we are blessed to have a Mother such as her.

O Mary, conceived without sin, Pray for us!!

 

[Dokimas]

excellent point…it is not about what Christ deserved, after all he did not deserve to be crucified, but he chose to undergo that death for us. During the incarnation he chose to lower himself and take on human flesh. To claim that he could/would not dwell in the womb of a sinner is to diminish the extent by which he lowered himself to save our souls.

That’s radical, thanks.

 

[Dokimas]

Mary was Jesus’ Mother. What do mother’s do? They love us and care for us. Mary did the same for Jesus. And He made His mother our Mother. “Behold you Mother,” He told us. Can we all agree on this? Yes we can. But Jesus holds His mother on a pedestal; He gave her the graces to be born without sin. We honor her the way He does. We receive His favors through her. Just the way a mother works behind the scenes left unnoticed (prays on our behalf, works to care for our well-being, etc) we are blessed to have a Mother such as her.

O Mary, conceived without sin, Pray for us!!

If Jesus ever lives to make intersession for us, do we need anyone else?​

Jesus spoke to John about behold his mother, not us. John was to take care of her.​

There is no indication Jesus put Mary on a pedestal.​

Could you please point to a Scripture that tells us anyone but Jesus was sinless? Could you point to a Scripture that tells us to pray to Mary?​

Thank you.

 

[teachccd]

excellent point…it is not about what Christ deserved, after all he did not deserve to be crucified, but he chose to undergo that death for us. During the incarnation he chose to lower himself and take on human flesh. To claim that he could/would not dwell in the womb of a sinner is to diminish the extent by which he lowered himself to save our souls.

Really? So then why did the stone tablets containing the ten commandments deserve a vessel lined with gold inside and out? Yes, Jesus did lower Himself in the incarnation and that is not what is in question here. I just mentioned that I would, as God did, hold Mary at least as high (if not higher) than the vessel that contained the stone tablets. On the surface your points are well taken but then we cannot discount what God Himself has done and what He commands in the vessels that holds His Word…teachccd

 

[lil_flower_luv]

If Jesus ever lives to make intersession for us, do we need anyone else?

Yes we do…it is just like prayer. God grants us His favors through prayer to Him…but He loves it when we ask intercession of His mother and the saints. It’s almost like bonus points for prayer.

Jesus spoke to John about behold his mother, not us. John was to take care of her.

Ah, but if you look a bit deeper, it is easy to see He is talking to all of His children. Jesus always did that.

There is no indication Jesus put Mary on a pedestal.

Just like the way God inspired the writers of the Bible, He inspired the writers of the CCC. Mary is indeed, the Mother of God and the Mother of the Church. jesus.2000.years.de/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm That would put her on a pedestal IMO.

Could you please point to a Scripture that tells us anyone but Jesus was sinless? Could you point to a Scripture that tells us to pray to Mary?

No I cannot. But we have come a long way, haven’t we? Mary has made herself known to us…and God us proved that. 966 "…preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507"

 

[teachccd]

You don’t have a high enough opinion of Jesus’ ability to deal with sin, IMO. Jesus touched sinners all the time. The Jewish religious leaders tried to point out Jesus was a sinner because He touched sinners. What a small problem for Jesus to be inside Mary and Mary being a sinner.

It has nothing to do with Jesus’ ability to deal with sin. It has to do with the commands of God. When God ordered the ark if the covenant to be built He gave explicit directions that it was to be lined with gold inside and out. No one could touch it or as we saw they lost their life. It was an unstained vessel. This is the Father’s gift to the Son. It is not something that Catholics invented. This is how our Lord was to take on human flesh, He that had no sin…

I don’t think Mary is the 2nd Eve. There is no Biblical reason to believe so. I answered someone else on this point. Maybe you can refer to this for my reasoning.

When God created Adam and Eve He created them perfect along with a free will. When Eve used her free will to say no to God death entered the world. When Mary used her free will to say yes to God life was restored to mankind. I am not a biblical scholar but then running through the parallels is pretty incredible. Mostly all theologians refer to Adam as the “second” Jesus and Mary as the second Eve not due to their relationship to each other but to their respective positions in God’s will.

Not only did Jesus call Mary woman, but in John 2 He said, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” IMO, not exactly what you’d think Jesus would say to Mary if your understanding of Mary is correct.

You surely do not state that Jesus disrepected His mother? Jesus ,who knew no sin, would break His own Father’s commandment to honor thy father and thy mother? You have to take the language used and place it in the time that it was used. Calling your mother “woman” was NOT a sign of disrespect. And Jesus’ response in the second chapter of John shows the humanity of Jesus in that when He performs His first miracle he accepts His path to the cross. It parallels with, “Father if it be possible have this cup pass from me”. Jesus is not disrespecting His Father’s wishes on how mankind is to be redeemed. He is merely exhibiting His human anxieties as He anticipates His passion.

Thank you for allowing me to continually remind myself and others of the wonderful gift God gave us in Jesus and His mother, Mary. Mary, pray for us…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

That’s radical, thanks.

 

[Dokimas]

Really? So then why did the stone tablets containing the ten commandments deserve a vessel lined with gold inside and out? Yes, Jesus did lower Himself in the incarnation and that is not what is in question here. I just mentioned that I would, as God did, hold Mary at least as high (if not higher) than the vessel that contained the stone tablets. On the surface your points are well taken but then we cannot discount what God Himself has done and what He commands in the vessels that holds His Word…teachccd

Humans are the crown creation of God, not gold.

 

[teachccd]

You must answer the question, ‘why would the Gospel writers use the same word in their writings and have them mean different things,’ if you can logically continue your belief that Jesus didn’t have brothers.

You must answer the question,‘why would the Gospel writers use the word ‘brothers’ if we know that at face value the closest that they could be to Jesus are as half-brothers since they cannot share the same father’? So, right off the bat we know that the term adelphos (brothers) cannot be literal brothers…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Humans are the crown creation of God, not gold.

Would you care to expound since I have no idea how this relates to my post? Are we talking apples and oranges here?

 

[Dokimas]

It has nothing to do with Jesus’ ability to deal with sin. It has to do with the commands of God. When God ordered the ark if the covenant to be built He gave explicit directions that it was to be lined with gold inside and out. No one could touch it or as we saw they lost their life. It was an unstained vessel. This is the Father’s gift to the Son. It is not something that Catholics invented. This is how our Lord was to take on human flesh, He that had no sin…

When God created Adam and Eve He created them perfect along with a free will. When Eve used her free will to say no to God death entered the world. When Mary used her free will to say yes to God life was restored to mankind. I am not a biblical scholar but then running through the parallels is pretty incredible. Mostly all theologians refer to Adam as the “second” Jesus and Mary as the second Eve not due to their relationship to each other but to their respective positions in God’s will.

You surely do not state that Jesus disrepected His mother? Jesus ,who knew no sin, would break His own Father’s commandment to honor thy father and thy mother? You have to take the language used and place it in the time that it was used. Calling your mother “woman” was NOT a sign of disrespect. And Jesus’ response in the second chapter of John shows the humanity of Jesus in that when He performs His first miracle he accepts His path to the cross. It parallels with, “Father if it be possible have this cup pass from me”. Jesus is not disrespecting His Father’s wishes on how mankind is to be redeemed. He is merely exhibiting His human anxieties as He anticipates His passion.

Thank you for allowing me to continually remind myself and others of the wonderful gift God gave us in Jesus and His mother, Mary. Mary, pray for us…teachccd

If Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, has anyone died by touching her? BTW, I’d like you to produce Scripture that equates Mary and the Ark. The writer of Hebrews, IMO, likens the Ark to Jesus and Jesus alone.​

Thank you for your opinion of Mary as the 2nd Eve. I respectfully disagree based on the lack of evidence from the Bible.​

I tried to choose my words carefully and not imply that Jesus was disrespecting Mary. As I said before, maybe Jesus chose the words He did, partially because He knew some would exalt Mary to a position she’d cringe at having.

 

[Dokimas]

You must answer the question,‘why would the Gospel writers use the word ‘brothers’ if we know that at face value the closest that they could be to Jesus are as half-brothers since they cannot share the same father’? So, right off the bat we know that the term adelphos (brothers) cannot be literal brothers…teachccd

I don’t think the writers would use the same word differently. James and John were brothers. Andrew and Simon (Peter) were brothers. Thus, I’m saying, by using the same Greek word, Jesus had actual brothers (half brothers).​

Hope that clears things up.

 

[Dokimas]

Humans are the crown creation of God, not gold.

Correct me if I’m wrong. You were speaking of the Ark of the Covenant being lined with gold and being untouchable to Mary being sinless.​

I was saying that Mary the sinner was worth far more than the gold that lined the Ark. Thus, humans are the crown creation of God, not gold. Mary, the sinner, was part of the crown creation of God worth far more than the gold that lined the Ark. Mary, and all sinners, have great worth. The worth of something comes from what another is willing to pay. God was willing to pay for Mary and the rest of us with the Precious Blood of Jesus.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I tried to choose my words carefully and not imply that Jesus was disrespecting Mary. As I said before, maybe Jesus chose the words He did, partially because He knew some would exalt Mary to a position she’d cringe at having.

((Oh, how I wish you didn’t think the Bible was the only source followers of Christ needed to look at! He gives us His word in many ways. I love the bible, but God has given us much more. My :twocents)

In regards to your above post: I believe Mary is humble, but she would never give up or “cringe at” the position God has given her. From the moment she said, “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord…” she was accepting His will. (What if she had said no? What a pickle we’d be in!)

“We must be humble like Mary, so that we may be holy like Jesus” ~Mother Teresa. (Sorry, that quote popped into my mind, and I thought I’d use it )

 

[Dokimas]

((Oh, how I wish you didn’t think the Bible was the only source followers of Christ needed to look at!

“We must be humble like Mary, so that we may be holy like Jesus” ~Mother Teresa.

First of all, that’s a wonderful quote from Mother Teresa.​

God does speak through others, but it don’t add to or take away from His Word. We need to take care what we believe. Please don’t feel sorry for me.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

God does speak through others, but it don’t add to or take away from His Word. We need to take care what we believe. Please don’t feel sorry for me.

He also speaks through the CCC too, IMO. And in there it says much the opposite about what you are saying about Mary, the Mother of God.
Yes, and if you do feel sorry for me, please don’t. I am very happy where I am…hope the same for you!

 

[Radical]

Really? So then why did the stone tablets containing the ten commandments deserve a vessel lined with gold inside and out?

I don’t read anywhere that the stone tablets deserved anything…the chest, although covered in gold inside and out was still merely wood at its core. The poles that where used to carry the ark where also covered in gold. The lid, the place where sin would be paid for, was made of pure gold. The tablets were to be placed in the chest by Moses.

First, you draw a questionable parallel between the ark and Mary. Then you pick and choose from the ark’s characteristics to support your doctrine regarding Mary. You say Mary is sinless b/c the chest was lined with gold, but why not conclude that she wasn’t sinless, b/c at its heart the chest was still wood? If the lining of the chest indicates that Mary was sinless, does the covering of the poles with gold mean that the donkey that carried Mary to Bethlehem (whilst the Word was inside of her) was also sinless? (Please do not take this “donkey” question as an attempt to be disrespectful, but rather take it as an effort to show inconsistency) Although Moses places the tablets in the ark, a mere man does not place the Word within Mary. It is not a case that the details of the ark require one to see a prefiguring of Mary in it and it is not the case that the details of the ark require one to take the next step and say that Mary was sinless. Rather, IMHO it is the case that Catholics tend to read back their Mariology into the details of the ark…and then claim it as proof of their view.

On the surface your points are well taken but then we cannot discount what God Himself has done and what He commands in the vessels that holds His Word

I think we can agree that it comes down to what God would require…and I don’t see any support in scripture or in the earliest of the ECFs for the idea that God required Mary to be sinless. Purity by way of virginity is repeatedly referenced in those sources, but not sinlessness.

 

[Justy90]

First, what Islam thinks of the Blessed Virgin Mary (or anything else, for that matter) is completely irrelevent to my faith.

Next, please explain what you mean by “don’t have the same teachings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother”? Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

Jon

That’s an excellent point. We can certainly view Mary in a biblical fashion and hold her in a high regard without having to adhere to Catholic dogmas. I believe that’s what many mainline Protestants do.

 

[teachccd]

I don’t read anywhere that the stone tablets deserved anything…the chest, although covered in gold inside and out was still merely wood at its core. The poles that where used to carry the ark where also covered in gold. The lid, the place where sin would be paid for, was made of pure gold. The tablets were to be placed in the chest by Moses.

First, you draw a questionable parallel between the ark and Mary. Then you pick and choose from the ark’s characteristics to support your doctrine regarding Mary. You say Mary is sinless b/c the chest was lined with gold, but why not conclude that she wasn’t sinless, b/c at its heart the chest was still wood? If the lining of the chest indicates that Mary was sinless, does the covering of the poles with gold mean that the donkey that carried Mary to Bethlehem (whilst the Word was inside of her) was also sinless? (Please do not take this “donkey” question as an attempt to be disrespectful, but rather take it as an effort to show inconsistency) Although Moses places the tablets in the ark, a mere man does not place the Word within Mary. It is not a case that the details of the ark require one to see a prefiguring of Mary in it and it is not the case that the details of the ark require one to take the next step and say that Mary was sinless. Rather, IMHO it is the case that Catholics tend to read back their Mariology into the details of the ark…and then claim it as proof of their view.

In your honest opinion then, why was the ark of the covenant lined in gold and why was Uzzah killed for touching it (cf. 2 Samuel 6)? The wood was acacia wood which was of the finest wood. You cannot tell me that the specifics given for the ark’s construction were for no avail. The ark was the mark of the Lord’s intimate presence among His people. It was kept in the Holy of Holies. So, again, I ask you why were not the tablets just set in an old shoebox?

In second Samuel chapter 6 we find that David lept before the ark and in Luke chapter 1 we find John the Baptist who also lept in front of Mary. David asks in 2 samuel 6:9, “How is it that the ark of the Lord can come to me?” In Luke 1:43, Mary exclaims, " And why is it granted that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" In 2 Samuel 6:11 we find that the ark remained in th house of Obededom the Gittite for three months and in Luke 1:56 we see Mary staying with Elizabeth for three months.

Questionable parallel?? I think not.

I

I think we can agree that it comes down to what God would require…and I don’t see any support in scripture or in the earliest of the ECFs for the idea that God required Mary to be sinless. Purity by way of virginity is repeatedly referenced in those sources, but not sinlessness.

In one of the “Nisibene Hymns” written by St. Ephraim in the year 370 we read:

You alone and your Mother
are more beautiful than any others;
For there is no blemish in you,
nor any stains upon your Mother.
Who of my children
can compare in beauty to these?

You are right that a great emphasis was put on Mary as the Mother of God and her perpetual virginity. The ECF’s can be quoted numerous times on those two dogmas. Would you say that God required her to be sinful? Is it not possible for God to preserve Mary from original sin through the merits of Christ’s death thus her still requiriung a savior, as someone mentioned above?

God required a special ark for His written word. Could He not require a special lady for His living Word? In your honest opinion, could this at least be feasible?

 

[teachccd]

Correct me if I’m wrong. You were speaking of the Ark of the Covenant being lined with gold and being untouchable to Mary being sinless.​

I was saying that Mary the sinner was worth far more than the gold that lined the Ark. Thus, humans are the crown creation of God, not gold. Mary, the sinner, was part of the crown creation of God worth far more than the gold that lined the Ark. Mary, and all sinners, have great worth. The worth of something comes from what another is willing to pay. God was willing to pay for Mary and the rest of us with the Precious Blood of Jesus.

Apples and oranges. No Catholic will admit that Mary is “worth” more than another human being. Christ died for her as well as for the rest of humanity. We are speaking in terms of the honor that God bestowed upon her. There can be no greater honor given to any of God’s creatures than the honor of asking her to take part in the salvific action with her cooperation in bringing Jesus into the world. God could have had Jesus appear to us in many different ways. But He didn’t and this was known from all eternity since God lives in the eternal now. God has no past or future. Everything is eternally present to Him and that is why He is out of time. So from all eternity God knew that Mary’s free will would choose Him and his plan for our redemption.

Catholics do not grant any more honor than God does. In fact, as humans our honor is infinitely less than the honor that God shows her. I often wonder if many Protestants really grasp that Mary gave birth to the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Can anyone even fathom that kind of honor? I surely cannot. It’s a mind boggler but that is what God chose to do and I am not one to reject His plan.

So, in closing, yes humans are worth more than gold but then Jesus is greater than two stone tablets as well. Jesus is the living Word of God and if He can be conceived of a virgin (which is quite unique) then He can be conceived in a woman who is free from sin. This does not put her on par with Christ since it is by His merits that all things are done. Who else created their own mother? Come on, use a little logic here…teachccd