Protestants and Mary

[Dokimas]

None of this seems to indicate that Mary could not have been free from sin! .

It indicates that if she is a Jew or Gentile then she is a sinner (unless she is Jesus).

 

[gcnuss]

And on that matter, don’t Protestant ministers charge for things like weddings and funerals. Until those things are free, you have nothing to say.

Carl,

That varies among pastors. I, for one, do not take payment for providing weddings or funerals for members (and their families – I stretch it out a bit). I am paid by the congregation to provide pastoral care and I consider such services to be part of that care. I even had to have a discussion with the local funeral home because their practice was to add a pastor’s fee into what they charged families for a funeral.

 

[elvisman]

How about the verses around Romans 3:10?

8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”? ––as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”

Why am I not surprised that you completely glossed over and discounted the direct correlation with Psalm 14? Probably because it smashes your position to bits.

Are you referring to the Greek word ‘charitoo’ translated in the KJV? In Luke 1:28 it is in the Present Active Imperative. The same word is used in the following verse about Paul and those he was referring to. Also notice it was a work done by God: Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted <5487> in the Beloved. The numbers are from Strong’s number system. The Holy Spirit had your Greek word to be used for Mary and all true blievers in the Messiah Jesus.

Nope - the word is kecharitomene that Luke used and is**** the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It is translated, "completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace." ******

Or Catholics misunderstand that we (I for one) don’t think for a milli-second that Jeus was disrespecting Mary. He was putting her role in perspective; maybe because He knew there would be those you would elevate her to a place that she doesn’t want and that is not hers.

HE elevates her - I only try to imitate him as we are ALL called to do.

Jesus didn’t follow the letter of the Sabbath. But, what does ‘it’s ridiculous to think that she would have done other wise’ have to do with my comments or the OP?

Because of the implication that she was a sinner and therefore HAD to comply with the Law. She complied because she was a faithful, obedient Jew - regardless of her having bee immaculately conceived. Jesus DID follow the sabbath and ALL of the Laws. He followed the heart of the Law and rejected the hypocritical renderings of the Law imposed by the Pharisees.

 

[Dokimas]

Nope - the word is kecharitomene that Luke used and is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It is translated, “completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.”

I found two differnent words used: charitoo and kechapitomene and you were correct that it is perfect passive participle (I made a mistake).​

You seemed to over look the Eph 1:6 verse.

 

[Dokimas]

Why am I not surprised that you completely glossed over and discounted the direct correlation with Psalm 14? Probably because it smashes your position to bits.

Ps 14: (highlights from me)

1 ¶ To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
4 ¶ Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the LORD?
5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.​

You’re correct, it’s clear from Ps 14. It’s just your interpretation that’s incorrect, IMO.

 

[CWBetts]

It indicates that if she is a Jew or Gentile then she is a sinner (unless she is Jesus).

It is absolutely impossible for the Blessed Mother to have sinned! She had enmity with Satan. That means she was fundamentally opposed to him. How can one be absolutely opposed to Satan and still sin. We, on the other hand, do not have enmity with Satan, because we do his will. If Mary sinned you have two choices: 1) Jesus was not the savior promised in the protoevangelum, or 2) The protoevangelum is in error. Take your pick.

 

[Dokimas]

1. Jesus was not the savior promised in the protoevangelum, or 2) The protoevangelum is in error. Take your pick.

First: I admit I don’t know what ‘protoevangelum’ is. I’ll google it.​

Second: Is God unable to plant His Son in a sinner? He lives in true believers. Paul spoke of Christ being formed in us.

 

[CWBetts]

First: I admit I don’t know what ‘protoevangelum’ is. I’ll google it.​

Second: Is God unable to plant His Son in a sinner? He lives in true believers. Paul spoke of Christ being formed in us.

The Protoevangelum is from the Latin, meaning “First (Proto-) Gospel (evangelum)” It is a term used to refer to the first promise of salvation in Genesis 3:15. Yes Jesus does unite Himself with us, but Mary’s case is different, she brought forth Salvation. Can perfection come from refuse? Mary did not sin.

 

[Dokimas]

The Protoevangelum is from the Latin, meaning “First (Proto-) Gospel (evangelum)” It is a term used to refer to the first promise of salvation in Genesis 3:15. Yes Jesus does unite Himself with us, but Mary’s case is different, she brought forth Salvation. Can perfection come from refuse? Mary did not sin.

Thank you for explaining ‘protoevangelum’.​

Thank you for your opinion about Mary. As you know we have differing opinions. My opinion is that salvation came by Jesus only. Mary was the fortunate woman to hold Him in her physical womb.

 

[Justy90]

It is absolutely impossible for the Blessed Mother to have sinned! She had enmity with Satan. That means she was fundamentally opposed to him. How can one be absolutely opposed to Satan and still sin. We, on the other hand, do not have enmity with Satan, because we do his will. If Mary sinned you have two choices: 1) Jesus was not the savior promised in the protoevangelum, or 2) The protoevangelum is in error. Take your pick.

I disagree. Mary even proclaimed God as her Lord and Savior in Scripture. If being full of grace means that she never sinned and could not commit sin, she would have never needed a savior. St. Paul even proclaims that all have fallen short of God’s grace. We could go on and on about more of Scripture that focuses on none of us being exempt from sin.

 

[CWBetts]

I disagree. Mary even proclaimed God as her Lord and Savior in Scripture. If being full of grace means that she never sinned and could not commit sin, she would have never needed a savior. St. Paul even proclaims that all have fallen short of God’s grace. We could go on and on about more of Scripture that focuses on none of us being exempt from sin.

You are not understanding. Mary did indeed have a Savior. Lets think about this. If God had not directly intervened in her conception, she would have been born with the stain of Original Sin, just like everybody else. She was saved, except that she was saved from the very beginning. As far is St. Paul goes, you can go on and on, provided you ignore the context. Taken in context, you will see that Mary’s sinlessness is in no way contrary to Scripture. Are you saying God is not powerful enough to protect certain of His creations form sin? Are you saying that the Devil is more powerful than God?

 

[CWBetts]

Thank you for explaining ‘protoevangelum’.​

Thank you for your opinion about Mary. As you know we have differing opinions. My opinion is that salvation came by Jesus only. Mary was the fortunate woman to hold Him in her physical womb.

Salvation came form Jesus, but Mary cooperated in the redemption of mankind

 

[Justy90]

You are not understanding. Mary did indeed have a Savior. Lets think about this. If God had not directly intervened in her conception, she would have been born with the stain of Original Sin, just like everybody else. She was saved, except that she was saved from the very beginning. As far is St. Paul goes, you can go on and on, provided you ignore the context. Taken in context, you will see that Mary’s sinlessness is in no way contrary to Scripture. Are you saying God is not powerful enough to protect certain of His creations form sin? Are you saying that the Devil is more powerful than God?

That would be totally ludacrous and off topic. Mary being sinless is in fact contrary to Scripture because firstly, Scripture never proclaims her to be so and secondly, Scripture speaks many times of us being ALL inclusively sinners. You can’t explain away what the text obviously and openly shows.

 

[CWBetts]

That would be totally ludacrous and off topic. Mary being sinless is in fact contrary to Scripture because firstly, Scripture never proclaims her to be so and secondly, Scripture speaks many times of us being ALL inclusively sinners. You can’t explain away what the text obviously and openly shows.

Except for the fact that the “all” you are referring to is not inclusive, but a generalization. To say otherwise would be to deny certain miracles that are explicitly mentioned in the Old Testament. And its not like the Word of God can only be written down. It can also be spoken. What you call “explaining away” I call proper catechesis.

 

[guanophore]

Yep. He also believed in a Real Bodily Presence…but I do not feel compelled to adopt his views.

This is a very good point. No one is “compelled” to believe what Jesus revealed to the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

But in my opinion (please don’t take offense)

It is hard not to be offended when people reject the Apostolic faith, and still claim to be Christian. However, opinions are like navels…everybody has one!

… That’s why I left the church.

In a way, it is a relief to know that it is your opinion that has led you away from the Apostolic Teaching.

 

[elvisman]

Ps 14: (highlights from me)

1 ¶ To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
4 ¶ Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the LORD?
5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.​

You’re correct, it’s clear from Ps 14. It’s just your interpretation that’s incorrect, IMO.

My whole point is that all of mankind is not included here. This is inclusive language about ceretain people.
Verse 1 starts with, "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."

Take a look at Verse 5:
5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

 

[Rexpi]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

Mary (Mother of Jesus) was a wonderful woman according to the bible, she gave Jesus His first education and she did very good. She fear God and love Him too and thanks God she was great with Jesus… Now Mary is resting, she is not alive and the bible doesnt say anything else about her. But she is resting waiting for her Savior Jesus to come and wake her up. I want to be in that group as well, being able to see Jesus and to live with Him.
It will be interesting to see Jesus recieving Mary, I guess it will be nice!

 

[elvisman]

Mary (Mother of Jesus) was a wonderful woman according to the bible, she gave Jesus His first education and she did very good. She fear God and love Him too and thanks God she was great with Jesus… Now Mary is resting, she is not alive and the bible doesnt say anything else about her. But she is resting waiting for her Savior Jesus to come and wake her up. I want to be in that group as well, being able to see Jesus and to live with Him.
It will be interesting to see Jesus recieving Mary, I guess it will be nice!

Another soul-sleeper . . .
First of all, soul-sleep is not supported by the CONTEXT of Scripture.

Secondly, those who have left this world in God’s grace and gone before us are not only alive - they are more alive that you or I because they see the enjoy the beatific vision and have been made righteous in the presence of God (Heb. 12:1). You and I do not and have not.
They are part of the Body of Christ and his Body is not dead (Acts 9:4-5, 1:Cor. 12:12-26).
They intercede on our behalf (Rev. 5:8).

 

[CWBetts]

Another soul-sleeper . . .
First of all, soul-sleep is not supported by the CONTEXT of Scripture.

Secondly, those who have left this world in God’s grace and gone before us are not only alive - they are more alive that you or I because they see the enjoy the beatific vision and have been made righteous in the presence of God (Heb. 12:1). You and I do not and have not.
**They are part of the Body of Christ and his Body is not **dead (Acts 9:4-5, 1:Cor. 12:12-26).
They intercede on our behalf (Rev. 5:8).

:clapping: