Protestants and Mary

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You can plunk a verse (or less) out of context, and try to make the Bible say what you wish, but that does not change the message of God. Take your evangelizing elsewhere. It is not welcome here. If you want do discuss, fine, but to try to evangelize is a clear violation of forum rules. In order to refute everything you posted, it would take a lengthy post for each verse. Such is the nature of apologetics. A false claim is quickly made but the refutation takes much longer. You are right about one thing. There is hope. But it cannot be found in a man-made organization. It is to be found in the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church
 
I think it would be beneficial to specify exactly when the historical record first gives reference to the various Marian doctrines:

a) the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary first appears around the end of the 4th or start of the 5th century….so more than 300 years after the alleged event
b) the first record of an express statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is hard to pin point. It seems that its roots go back to the 4th or 5th centuries and that it was debated in the middle ages with Aquinas opposing it. It seems that an express statement of the doctrine doesn’t show up until hundreds of years after (maybe even a thousand years after) the alleged event
c) the doctrine of perpetual virginity first appears in the spurious Gospel of James around 150AD……only a hundred years of silence on this one.
d) the views of Mary as Coredemptrix and Mediatrix are also difficult to pin point partly b/c both have been built up over the centuries….again I suspect that it is fair to say that it wasn’t until a few hundred years after the death of Jesus that history records the early forms of these beliefs.

Elvisman would have us believe that this silence exists b/c doctrines were only recorded and defined when they were challenged. This explanation strikes me as being very implausible for a couple of reasons.

First, the apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and the ECFs did not write only when confronting heretics. Often their letters were addressed to believers explaining matters of faith and telling of how to run the good race. If Mary was as important then as she is now (to the venerators), then she would have merited mention on those occasions (particularly with respect to her role as mediatrix and coredemptrix she should have been mentioned b/c of her continuing importance in one’s salvation).

Second, on early challenge to orthodoxy came from Gnostics who denied that Jesus actually suffered in the flesh. John refers to those one who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Ignatius described what one group of such Gnostics denied:
  • But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. *
If the Gnostics denied that Jesus came in the flesh, they would have no need for Mary’s perpetual virginity b/c a natural bodily birth would never have occurred. Mary’s need for purity b/c of having Jesus in her womb would therefore be reduced to zero and therefore her alleged sinlessness and her alleged immaculate conception would have made no sense to them. In contrast, if her sinlessness and her immaculate conception were part of orthodoxy at that time, they would have been referenced to establish Christ’s coming in the flesh via Mary’s pure womb. In “On the Flesh of Christ” Tertullian goes into a fairly detailed discussion on the novelty of Christ’s birth and how the Gnostics deny its reality.
In the first chapter Tertullian states:

Let us examine our Lord’s bodily substance, for about His spiritual nature all are agreed. It is His flesh that is in question. Its verity and quality are the points in dispute. Did it ever exist? Whence was it derived? And of what kind was it? If we succeed in demonstrating it, we shall lay down a law for our own resurrection. Marcion, in order that he might deny the flesh of Christ, denied also His nativity, or else he denied His flesh in order that he might deny His nativity; because, of course, he was afraid that His nativity and His flesh bore mutual testimony to each other’s reality, since there is no nativity without flesh, and no flesh without nativity. As if indeed, under the prompting of that licence which is ever the same in all heresy, he too might not very well have either denied the nativity, although admitting the flesh—like Apelles, who was first a disciple of his, and afterwards an apostate—or, while admitting both the flesh and the nativity, have interpreted them in a different sense, as did Valentinus, who resembled Apelles both in his discipleship and desertion of Marcion. At all events, he who represented the flesh of Christ to be imaginary was equally able to pass off His nativity as a phantom; so that the virgin’s conception, and pregnancy, and child-bearing, and then the whole course of her infant too, would have to be regarded as putative. These facts pertaining to the nativity of Christ would escape the notice of the same eyes and the same senses as failed to grasp the full idea of His flesh.

If Tertullian thought that Mary was immaculately conceived or that she was sinless then he surely would have raised those orthodox beliefs as giving evidence that these things were put in place so that Christ could obtain his flesh from her….

As such, the excuse that the historical record is silent on these Marian doctrines b/c there was no need to address them, smells extremely fishy.
 
Radical,
Did it ever occur to you that before the 4th century, Christians were not able to delve into deep theological issues? Of course this will elicit a question “Why not?”, which is of course a valid question. It was because they had much more serious issues to contend with, like survival. Until Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, they were more concerned with maintaining the continuity of the faith, and less concerned abut deeper theology. The deeper aspects would have to wait until after they weren’t being hunted down and executed. Continuance of the faith was the primary concern. After the Church was legalized under Constantine, issues such as Mariology and compilation of the Scriptures could be addressed. One thing you did fail to point out was that St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the late first and early second centuries, stressed loyalty to the Bishops, which would include later developing doctrines, such as the Marian dogmas.
 
Elvisman would have us believe that this silence exists b/c doctrines were only recorded and defined when they were challenged. This explanation strikes me as being very implausible for a couple of reasons.
Well, what can I say? You’re wrong.
**Consider that the final dogmatic decree of the canon of Scripture wasn’t made until Trent ****in the 16th Century. This was to counter the damage of the Reformation and the ****heresies **therein. The canon of Scripture had been declared at Carthage and Hippo over 1000 years earlier and was unchanged until the Reformation.
First, the apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and the ECFs did not write only when confronting heretics. Often their letters were addressed to believers explaining matters of faith and telling of how to run the good race. If Mary was as important then as she is now (to the venerators), then she would have merited mention on those occasions (particularly with respect to her role as mediatrix and coredemptrix she should have been mentioned b/c of her continuing importance in one’s salvation).
I never made the claim that the ECFs only wrote when a heresy was being confronted. I said that these beliefs were** usually**** declared dogmatically because of a dissent or heresy.**
The ECFs wrote about great many things – usually in a homily or in a debate.
Second, on early challenge to orthodoxy came from Gnostics who denied that Jesus actually suffered in the flesh. John refers to those one who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Ignatius described what one group of such Gnostics denied:
*But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. *
If the Gnostics denied that Jesus came in the flesh, they would have no need for Mary’s perpetual virginity b/c a natural bodily birth would never have occurred. Mary’s need for purity b/c of having Jesus in her womb would therefore be reduced to zero and therefore her alleged sinlessness and her alleged immaculate conception would have made no sense to them. In contrast, if her sinlessness and her immaculate conception were part of orthodoxy at that time, they would have been referenced to establish Christ’s coming in the flesh via Mary’s pure womb.
Ignatius’s statement’s here are referring to the Eucharist – that it is the same body that suffered for our sins. He is speaking to the reality of the Real Presencenot to whether Jesus was actually made of flesh.
 
In “On the Flesh of Christ” Tertullian goes into a fairly detailed discussion on the novelty of Christ’s birth and how the Gnostics deny its reality.
In the first chapter Tertullian states:
Let us examine our Lord’s bodily substance, for about His spiritual nature all are agreed. It is His flesh that is in question. Its verity and quality are the points in dispute. Did it ever exist? Whence was it derived? And of what kind was it? If we succeed in demonstrating it, we shall lay down a law for our own resurrection. Marcion, in order that he might deny the flesh of Christ, denied also His nativity, or else he denied His flesh in order that he might deny His nativity; because, of course, he was afraid that His nativity and His flesh bore mutual testimony to each other’s reality, since there is no nativity without flesh, and no flesh without nativity. As if indeed, under the prompting of that licence which is ever the same in all heresy, he too might not very well have either denied the nativity, although admitting the flesh—like Apelles, who was first a disciple of his, and afterwards an apostate—or, while admitting both the flesh and the nativity, have interpreted them in a different sense, as did Valentinus, who resembled Apelles both in his discipleship and desertion of Marcion. At all events, he who represented the flesh of Christ to be imaginary was equally able to pass off His nativity as a phantom; so that the virgin’s conception, and pregnancy, and child-bearing, and then the whole course of her infant too, would have to be regarded as putative. These facts pertaining to the nativity of Christ would escape the notice of the same eyes and the same senses as failed to grasp the full idea of His flesh.
If Tertullian thought that Mary was immaculately conceived or that she was sinless then he surely would have raised those orthodox beliefs as giving evidence that these things were put in place so that Christ could obtain his flesh from her…
Wrong**.**
In Tertullian’s treatise on the** incarnation**** of Christ - it is the point that Jesus was a man that is being driven home here – not his divinity. Mary’s sinlessness was not ae point of the Gnostic heresy – so much as the**** Arian**** heresy, which came a couple of ****hundreds **of years later.
As such, the excuse that the historical record is silent on these Marian doctrines b/c there was no need to address them, smells extremely fishy.
The only thing that smells fishy is your apparent lack of faith in the promises of Christ.
 
Radical,
Did it ever occur to you that before the 4th century, Christians were not able to delve into deep theological issues? Of course this will elicit a question “Why not?”, which is of course a valid question. It was because they had much more serious issues to contend with, like survival. Until Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, they were more concerned with maintaining the continuity of the faith, and less concerned abut deeper theology. The deeper aspects would have to wait until after they weren’t being hunted down and executed. Continuance of the faith was the primary concern. After the Church was legalized under Constantine, issues such as Mariology and compilation of the Scriptures could be addressed. One thing you did fail to point out was that St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the late first and early second centuries, stressed loyalty to the Bishops, which would include later developing doctrines, such as the Marian dogmas.
GREAT point. 👍
 
Radical,
Did it ever occur to you that before the 4th century, Christians were not able to delve into deep theological issues?
No. If you look at the volumes and volumes of extant writings we have from Tertullian, Martyr and Irenaeus you will see that they did delve deeply into theological issues…the Ante-Nicene Fathers is a 10 volume set and it doesn’t contain all of those writings that have been lost.
Of course this will elicit a question “Why not?”, which is of course a valid question. It was because they had much more serious issues to contend with, like survival.
persecution was far from continuous and usually rather localized
Until Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, they were more concerned with maintaining the continuity of the faith, and less concerned abut deeper theology…One thing you did fail to point out was that St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the late first and early second centuries, stressed loyalty to the Bishops, which would include later developing doctrines, such as the Marian dogmas.
Are you saying that the Marian doctrines were not things passed on from the apostolic age, but that they were novelties that were developed later…cuz that is what I am saying.
 
No. If you look at the volumes and volumes of extant writings we have from Tertullian, Martyr and Irenaeus you will see that they did delve deeply into theological issues…the Ante-Nicene Fathers is a 10 volume set and it doesn’t contain all of those writings that have been lost.

persecution was far from continuous and usually rather localized

Are you saying that the Marian doctrines were not things passed on from the apostolic age, but that they were novelties that were developed later…cuz that is what I am saying.
Not at all. They were passed on by ORAL TRADITION. They are not “novelties” or “man-made”, like sola scriptura, for example. When a doctrine is dogmatically defined is irrelevant. Definition occurs in response to a crisis. But I suspect that you would not care if the Early Fathers and Doctors of the Church would have said anything about the Blessed Mother. Then you would simply ignore them, just as you do when they mention the Eucharist, and the Canon of Scripture, and anything else you chose to reject for whatever reason. St. Mary’s position is established in the Scriptures anyways. Mary says (in Luke 1:48) that all generations will call her blessed. She does not say that all generations will regard her as just a Jewish girl God decided to use. The Catholic position is the former, yours is the latter. So which faith community is consistent with Scripture?
 
But I suspect that you would not care if the Early Fathers and Doctors of the Church would have said anything about the Blessed Mother.
Of course, I would…I am a student of history and seeker of correct doctrine. I suspect that where we differ is wrt my belief that the ECFs were very capable of ruminating on theological matters and then expounding and expanding upon them until they had added considerable novelty to the original rule of faith. My belief explains the pronounced silence wrt Mary in the NT and the earliest centuries of the church. Your explanation fails to provide a plausible reason for that silence.
Mary says (in Luke 1:48) that all generations will call her blessed.
Is it Mary or Elizabeth who makes that claim?
She does not say that all generations will regard her as just a Jewish girl God decided to use.
to be used by God to bear is only son would be a blessing sufficient for all to see her as blessed.
The Catholic position is the former, yours is the latter. So which faith community is consistent with Scripture?
mine…b/c it doesn’t add to scripture that which was never taught by the early church. Thanks for asking.
 
No. If you look at the volumes and volumes of extant writings we have from Tertullian, Martyr and Irenaeus you will see that they did delve deeply into theological issues…the Ante-Nicene Fathers is a 10 volume set and it doesn’t contain all of those writings that have been lost.

persecution was far from continuous and usually rather localized

Are you saying that the Marian doctrines were not things passed on from the apostolic age, but that they were novelties that were developed later…cuz that is what I am saying.
Radical you are waisting your time trying to explain with certain proofs about this matter of Mary… Sadly this people prefer to put their leaders teachings before anything just take a look to all the verses in the bible I showed to demostrate the state of the dead… You give them a read and let me know if I am truly using my words or purely bible. Thanks radical and good luck
 
Radical you are waisting your time trying to explain with certain proofs about this matter of Mary… Sadly this people prefer to put their leaders teachings before anything just take a look to all the verses in the bible I showed to demostrate the state of the dead… You give them a read and let me know if I am truly using my words or purely bible. Thanks radical and good luck
Did you bother reading my responses (posts 385 & 386) where I debunked all of your so-called "proof"?

I didn’t think so. :rolleyes:
 
Radical you are waisting your time trying to explain with certain proofs about this matter of Mary…
You are right…if my audience is restricted to the likes of Elvisman…but if a Venerator wants to know why I don’t believe as he does, I’ll explain and there might be some value in presenting the other side of the coin if others are following the thread.
Sadly this people prefer to put their leaders teachings before anything…
agreed…such is their faith. You would first have to get them to believe that their Church can err, before they will even begin to consider that you might have a valid position to present…don’t hold your breath. 😉
You give them a read and let me know if I am truly using my words or purely bible. Thanks radical and good luck
Seems to me that you present a decent case…have you ever read anything by Edward Fudge? I think he builds a good case for conditional immortality. Take care.
 
You are right…if my audience is restricted to the likes of Elvisman…but if a Venerator wants to know why I don’t believe as he does, .
I know why!!

You are leaning on your own understanding.

Right?
 
You would first have to get them to believe that their Church can err, before they will even begin to consider that you might have a valid position to present…don’t hold your breath. 😉
You must have a plank in your eye, because we have told you many times it is man who has caused corruption. Not the Church. Should I make the font bigger next time? Cause I may have to repeat it again and again. 😉
 
Of course, I would…I am a student of history and seeker of correct doctrine. I suspect that where we differ is wrt my belief that the ECFs were very capable of ruminating on theological matters and then expounding and expanding upon them until they had added considerable novelty to the original rule of faith. My belief explains the pronounced silence wrt Mary in the NT and the earliest centuries of the church. Your explanation fails to provide a plausible reason for that silence.

Is it Mary or Elizabeth who makes that claim?

to be used by God to bear is only son would be a blessing sufficient for all to see her as blessed.

mine…b/c it doesn’t add to scripture that which was never taught by the early church. Thanks for asking.
Wrong answer. The Catholic Church is the only church that teaches every truth in the Bible. Everyone else leaves stuff out.
 
You are right…if my audience is restricted to the likes of Elvisman…but if a Venerator wants to know why I don’t believe as he does, I’ll explain and there might be some value in presenting the other side of the coin if others are following the thread.
Sorry the evidence I presented so far has been too much for you to take.

Like the old saying goes, "The truth hurts."
Nowhere is that more evident than in posts like yours . . . :rolleyes:
 
You must have a plank in your eye, because we have told you many times it is man who has caused corruption. Not the Church. Should I make the font bigger next time? Cause I may have to repeat it again and again. 😉

Larger font doesn’t make something true that is not true or false if it is true.​

Peter was corrected by Paul. All of us fail. There is not one or group that understands perfectly. If, and quite possibly, true that the church made up of mere mortals is not perfect, It is dangerous to make a false statement of the magnitude that the church is infalible in it’s teachings and understanding of the Bible.​

BTW, how long did it take for God to create The universe, solar system and the earth with all its inhabitants?
 
Did you bother reading my responses (posts 385 & 386) where I debunked all of your so-called "proof"?

I didn’t think so. :rolleyes:

You think quite higly of you abilities to debun, don’t you?​

Pride is a sin, you know? I know because I can tend to stumble because of it myself.
 
elvisman said:
Job is clearly speaking of being in God’s protection after he leaves this world, asking God to hide him in the netherworld (Sheol)**** until his wrath has ceased.**

These passages are all saying that we will ALL be reunited with our glorified bodies.
**It ****doesn’t **take a scholar to see this.

This is a complete
distortion of the text.
This is a big WHAT IF Christ had not been raised. THEN there is no resurrection.
This is EXTREMELY weak. You can’t be serious . . .

Your faulty interpretations and comments border on lies.
This is NOT what the text is saying in this passage.
HERE is what it says:
“Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? If the world is to be judged by you, are you unqualified for the lowest law courts?

Your "interpretations" are bizarre, to say the least.
Peter spoke well of you when he said:
"In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

For the most part, I tend to agree with you. I’m not sure it’s cut and dry, though.​

Where I have a problem with you is your personal attack. Be careful, how you judge others will come back on you, especially if you do similar things.
 
Sorry the evidence I presented so far has been too much for you to take.

Like the old saying goes, "The truth hurts."
Nowhere is that more evident than in posts like yours . . . :rolleyes:
Does the truth shared with you which you reject hurtful? That may be why you’re often on the attack. You and I have something in common, IMO, logs in our eyes.
 
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