Protestants and Mary

[guanophore]

Maybe I worded what I said poorly. God can do what He likes as long as He dosn’t contradict Himself. I see know Biblical evidence to support what you say about Mary as being a perfect vessel for the reasons you and others have posted.​

The only contradictory element might be our erroneous perceptions.

I appreciate your willingness to see the Catholic point of view. Even if you decide not to embrace it, it is refreshing that you are willing to understand at least.

 

[guanophore]

 is this not what happens when any one of us reads God's word, meditates upon it and then thinks what it means to us?  God did give us a brain to 'pontificate' with, did He not?

LOL I suppose it does happen. But no, I think He gave us our intellect so that we could conform ourselves to His will.

 Mt 19:17  So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Mr 10:18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Lu 18:19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.​

Where does the Bible say Mary is the new Eve? You’ve accused me of not being correct Biblically and I’ve shown you the verses in which it is recorded what Jesus said about anyone being called ‘good’. Now please show us where Mary is called the New Eve.

Jesus is asking him a rhetorical question, and challenging his basic assumptions. God also calls His creation good, and about man, He says “very good”. It does not mean that his creations are God. God desires that we become partakers of HIs nature, becoming good, as He is good.

Jesus says Mary is the new Eve when He uses the term “Woman” as a title for her.

She did what Eve did not - Jesus commends her as our role model through her obedience. she is blessed that she bore Him, but EVEN MORE RATHER she is blessed because she heard the word of God, and kept it.

 

[guanophore]

If she was sinless then how could He die for something she did not do?

He died so that she could be sinless. He wants all of us to be sinless. ​

-Did she have a sin nature according to the CC?

no. This is what the Immaculate Conception means. She was preserved from original sin at the moment of her conception, so that she would be like Eve, created without original sin. In this way, she can be the perfect ark of the covenant from which He could take His flesh for the life of the world.

 

[guanophore]

In regards to Revelation 5:8 How exactly do you derive an intercession? Maybe no one has responded to your satisfaction or because it makes no sense.

Intercession is the act of standing in the gap on behalf of one, toward another. In this passage, the elders are making intercession. They bring the prayers of the saints.

The bowls and the incense represent the prayers of all the saints through all the ages that the promised redemption might come.

Luke 1:8 (regarding Zacharias) Now it happened {that} while ***he was performing his priestly service before God ***in the {appointed} order of his division, 9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And ***the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside at the hour of the incense offering. ***

Multiply that scene of people offering prayers TO GOD by hundreds or thousands of years and this is the picture you see represented by the incense. Prayers offered to God by the people; not any intercessor by saints petitioning for those on earth to God as you have implied.

Both things are true.

Revelation 8 is the same principle, but a little more detailed because there is angel acting as an OT priest and the saints in heaven are adding to the prayers from previous; praying for Satan to be defeated, but this has to do with the timing, most of the seals have been open and all that has been prophesied is about to reach a climax.

It seems that we are in agreement that the angels and saints do intercede.

Is this person accurate concerning incense at the Mass?
Father William Saunders
Why do priests use incense at Mass? Where does it come from?—A reader in Alexandria

The use of incense in the ancient world was common, especially in religious rites where it was used to keep demons away. Herodotus, the Greek historian, recorded that it was popular among the Assyrians, Babylonians and Egyptians. In Judaism, incense was included in the thanksgiving offerings of oil, rain, fruits, wine (cf. Numbers 7:13-17). The Lord instructed Moses to build a golden altar for the burning of incense (cf. Exodus 30:1-10), which was placed in front of the veil to the entrance of the meeting tent where the ark of the covenant was kept.

We do not know exactly when the use of incense was introduced into our Mass or other liturgical rites. At the time of the early Church, the Jews continued to use incense in their own Temple rituals, so it would be safe to conclude that the Christians would have adapted its usage for their own rituals…The purpose of incensing and the symbolic value of the smoke is that of purification and sanctification. For example, in the Eastern Rites at the beginning of Mass, the altar and sanctuary area were incensed while Psalm 50, the “Miserere,” was chanted invoking the mercy of God. The smoke symbolizes the prayers of the faithful drifting up to heaven: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INCENSE.htm

It seems compatible with the teaching of the church.

Sounds like they are imitating the OT Levitical-style ritual.

Do you think that those who believe in God should stop using insense, because we are no longer bound by levitical laws?

Actually I read somewhere that they used a lot of insense because the church got a bad odor quickly from a lot of unwashed people crowded together on a hot day.

 

[guanophore]

You are a little late; I have already rebuked and proven there were at least 3 James; one being the Lords brother, the other two part of the 12. You know what they say; misery loves company; keep patting yourselves on the back as you happily reject the word of God.

Sorry, I was behind on the thread. Yes, you did show three James. None of them came from the womb of the mother of Jesus. Do you recognize that there is another Mary in scripture, described as the "sister’ of Jesus’ mother, who is the mother of this hoard of kids?

 

[CWBetts]

So if “brother” always means sibling, then does than mean Mary had something like 120 kids?!

All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty)…

Acts 1:14-15

 

[guanophore]

That does not answer the question if you consider Mary to be your co-redeemer. I know Catholics are quite divided over this future potential dogma.

The reason many of us are hesitant is not because we don’t agree with it, but because it is so easily misunderstood by people such as yourself. There are so many misunderstandings already.

 BTW... I notice you are not willing to answer direct questions to you, and avoid them with unrelated propaganda.  It's not a very honest way to debate and discuss things.

I am sorry, 2nd, I am not sure what you are talking about. If you are referring to the fact that I would not engage in your thread because it is posted in the wrong area, my suggestion would be to post it over in apologetics, where it belongs.

If you are referring to Rick’s digression into topics that are not related to the present topic, it might help if you realized that one of the forum rules is to remain on topic.

 

[guanophore]

Do you know the difference bewteen discernment and condemnation?

Yes. What you are doing is presuming that you can evaluate my spiritual condition, over the internet, no less!

One we are called to do, the other is soley God's domain.  I know where I stand before God and Guanaphore spiritual condition is very easily discernable in light of what he has said he believes.  I do not wnt him on the path I see him on; I know what is potentially at stake.  Do you care that much for him?  I do.

Well, thank you Rick.

I appreciate your prayers and concern.

I am curious, though, how you are able to evaluate my spiritual condition by reading my posts.

 

[guanophore]

I thought the phrase full of grace meant that God has nothing but favor for her, not necesarily implying sinlessness?

Yes, but God’s favor does not rest upon sin. The Gk actually translates “one who has been previously fully filled with grace that has ongoing effects”.

She was already filled with Grace when the angel greeted her. The greeting was a title. He did not greet her by her name, but by the title “Full of Grace”.

 

[guanophore]

You realize that is just gonna tick him off, right?

Yeah, but he seems pretty ticked off about the Catholic faith already - or rather, what he thinks it is. He thinks we are idolaters because we honor the Mother of the Lord, and that we don’t believe the bible, because we don’t interpret it the way he does.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, babies are included. Babies also have original sin. That is why it’s called original sin. The Bible says in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

Yes, babies have original sin, that is why we baptize them ,to wash it away. But it is not correct to say the “have sinned”. This is a reference to personal sin.

What has this got to do with the topic? Do you believe this passage is “proof” that God could not save Mary from original sin?

 

[guanophore]

Anyone who says the saints cannot intercede for us is essentially saying that after death, we are cut off from the Body of Christ! That is an idea that is utterly without merit

Yes, exactly!

But they make it because they are separated from the Apostolic Faith.

 

[guanophore]

This may come as a shock to you, Bengoshi, but none of the saints are dead. Those who die in the Lord are “alive forevermore”.

There was no need to say this as I have already preempted it in my previous post.

Sorry,. I am having trouble understanding. It seemed like you said they were dead.

Does this attitude mean that you never ask anyone to pray for you, because you “dont’ see the need”?

Again, it’s different when we are talking about those living on earth. Yes, the saints are alive, spiritually but not physically.

Where in scripture does it require that someone have a physical body in order to intercede for someone?

Certainly we need to gather and pray one for another on earth, but to suggest that those who have gone on before us are no longer members of His One Body is preposterous.

I did not say that the saints in heaven are no longer members of the body of Christ.

Oh. Ok. So if they are members of the Body, are they dead limbs hanging?

You are adding to my words just as the RCC adds to the words of the Bible.

Bengoshi, Bengoshi. I don’t know why you have so much hostility toward my Latin Rite brethren.

Actually, the Latin Rite did not yet exist separately when the canon of scripture was closed. However, it is correct to say that the CC has added to the words of the Bible. The Catholic Church added the entire NT, in fact. All 27 books are Catholic, and there is nothing contained in them that is not Catholic.

Scripture tells us that “the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous has great power in it’s effects”. There are none more righteous than those whose faith has been forever perfected by His grace. They can no longer fall, as He holds them.

That is true, but again, they are not ON EARTH any longer.

Where does scripture say this was a requirement. If it was a requirement, why would Jesus violate His own principles by talking to Elijah and Moses? Even more, why did He go out of His way to make sure the Apsotles were present and could witness it?

They can hear whatever God wants them to hear. Do you think that Moses and Elijah could “hear” Jesus?

This is merely speculative and is not supported by “evidence.”

Are you telling me that God did not allow Samuel to have a conversation with Saul?

Anyway the second part is a question. One you did not answer. Why not?

Could Samuel “hear” Saul?

Samuel was summoned to earth by a sorceress. By definition, he was ON EARTH at that time, and so were Moses and Elijah when they were talking to Jesus during the transfiguration. God has the ability to send someone from heaven to Earth.

Well, all of those persons exist outside the space time continuum, and they are really not"on earth" in sense that we are who have bodies. I am glad we agree that God is able.

I am not sure why you think there is some sort of impassible barrier around the earth that those no longer physically present cannot be spiritually present.

Such a concept is not scriptural either.

Have you ever looked at the creeds of the early Church? do you know what the “communion of saints” means?

 

[onenow1]

Maybe this will help some objections to Blessed Mary’s holiness ?

Did God call Mary Blessed, did he He venerate her ?:

Did GOD chose Blessed Mary above all women ?:

Did Blessed Mary give birth to the divine ‘Incarnate Word’ ?

As a child,did Jesus obey the commands of His mother ?

Does Jesus honor His very own mother ?

Do you think Jesus will defend His mother, as any good son would forever?

If Jesus did not love His mother, as some posts infer,at least implicitly then Jesus as man,
disobeyed His own commandment: Honor thy father and mother. Jesus lowered Himself and raised Blessed Mary up because of His Love for us, lets not forget this simple and obvious fact !

Peace and God Bless
onenow1opcorn:

 

[Good_Fella]

I believe that even though God chose Mary as His vessel to give us our Lord Jesus Christ in a human body, it does not mean God was dependent on Mary’s cooperation to fullfill His divine plan of redemption.

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you in all truth and declare to you the things that are coming.”
John 16, 12-13

The fact that God chose Mary over all the women of his chosen people shows that no woman other than her was as pure and worthy to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son. It was in virtue of her divine maternity that “the Almighty has done great things” for her since the first instant of her immaculate conception. In any event, Mary gave her free and active consent to be the mother of our Lord so that the world could be redeemed by our Saviour. By her act of faith she merited for herself the second plenitude of grace she had received by conceiving and bearing her divine Son and for us the gift of our eternal salvation. Although God did not depend on Mary, he could have saved us without her collaboration or even without becoming incarnate, she nonethless freely became the mother of our Lord. It was because Abraham acted in faith working through love that his descendants became a great nation through which the entire world would be blessed.

By her free act of faith in love, Mary became the mother of us all in place of Eve, of those who bear witness to Jesus and keep his commandments (Rev 12:17). She fulfilled the promise made to Abraham on account of his faith. Neither of them were passive instruments in the divine order of redemption. Christ does not save us alone. He honours our meritorious free acts of faith in love by grace, which are necessary for our salvation. Mary pronounced her fiat in faith out of a perfect love for God and humankind. Thus she helped make satisfaction for the sins of the world. God has efficaciously preordained and infallibly forseen Mary’s consent to the redemptive Incarnation. This is why he chose her to be the mother of our Lord.

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

“As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

“*The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had ever disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.”/*COLOR]
Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521)

“The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 49
PAX :heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

… I believe Mary would reject the title of Queen Mother of Heaven and earth…

God further said to Abraham, “As for your wife Sarai, do not call her Sarai; her name shall be Sarah. I will bless her and give you a son by her. Him also will I bless.”
Genesis 17, 15-16

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

And God replied, “Your wife Sarah shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac.”
Genesis 17, 19

“Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”
Luke 1, 31

The Hebrew name Sarai means “princess”; the name Sarah means “exalted princess”. A princess is exalted by becoming queen. In Judaic tradition Sarah prefigures the Queen Mother (Gebirah) of a Davidic king, who in turn prefigures our Lord Jesus Christ - notably that king being David in Solomon’s lineage. The Gebirah prefigures Mary, the mother of our divine Lord and King. And since Isaac prefigures Christ as the true heir of promise who is immolated for the sins of the world, Sarah, the mother of Isaac, prefigures Mary.

We should bear in mind that the angel Gabriel saluted Mary by saying “Hail”. In ancient time this salutation was formally reserved for royal personages. Recall the Roman soldiers sarcastically used this form of salutation when torturing and mocking Jesus by placing a crown of thorns on his head: “Hail, king of the Jews.” Only Jesus and Mary are “hailed” in the New Testament on account of their Davidic royalty.

The angel recognized Mary’s royal personage as the Gebirah of the New Dispensation. And he refrained from calling Mary by her given name because she had been exalted to queenship by virtue of her divine maternity which God infallibly foresaw she would consent to.

And the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother.
1 Kings 2, 19

“And the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
Luke 1, 32-33

They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11

Mary would have offended God if she rejected his will. But Mary said, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”

“Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers.”
Cyril of Alexandria (ante A.D.444)

PAX :heaven:

 

[RickHolland2]

John the Baptists parents never sinned while on earth unless you can find sin, walking in all the commandments.

---

As was John the Baptist himself who was filled with the Holy Spirit, even in His mother’s womb. That’s quite the statement there if you ask me.

---

Revelations tells us that one hundred forty-four thousand Virgins never had a spot on them and never uttered one lie.

---

God has said ALL have fallen short - nuff said.

 

[RickHolland2]

I recognize how you arrived at such a conclusion that Mary had other children. It is the same source where your misunderstandings of salvation emanate.

It is real hard to get that one wrong.

I do worry, though, about the extent of your misundersatndings,a nd the eternal consequences for those. I also am concerned by your inability to recieve the teaching of the church. Even if you chose not to agree, it is concerning that you cannot even try to understand what is taught.

The inability to accept your churches teaching is a result of sveral things, but for now I give one; the more I do know and understand the more easily convinced I am that the doctrines are not compatible with Scripture and prepares me better to defend the true faith…a blessing from above.

This is very true. You notice He did not go running after them, either, telling them they misunderstood.

He has been using people to run after you; but the time is coming when the heart is so hardened; He just lets you to your own ways. I fear you may be there.

You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that devotion to the Blessed Mother subtracts from Christ. On the contrary, she bids us to follow Him as she has done. Her soul acts as a magnifier, enhancing all our devotion to Him.

You own church calls it worship and I’m sure God sees it the same. When will you start to follow Him as she did?

You are confusing veneration with the adoration that is due only to God. There is nothing wrong with honoring the work God has done in His saints.

Tell that to your church, they use the two words properly, which is interchageably with venerate and adorate; so I can conclude you are embarrassed that you worship a dead spirit, which God forbids.

 

[RickHolland2]

Intercession is the act of standing in the gap on behalf of one, toward another. In this passage, the elders are making intercession. They bring the prayers of the saints.

Both things are true.

It seems that we are in agreement that the angels and saints do intercede.

It seems compatible with the teaching of the church.

Do you think that those who believe in God should stop using insense, because we are no longer bound by levitical laws?

Actually I read somewhere that they used a lot of insense because the church got a bad odor quickly from a lot of unwashed people crowded together on a hot day.

They are HOLDING the INCENSE - Hopeless.

 

[RickHolland2]

Yes. What you are doing is presuming that you can evaluate my spiritual condition, over the internet, no less!

Well, thank you Rick.

I appreciate your prayers and concern.

I am curious, though, how you are able to evaluate my spiritual condition by reading my posts.

Not very hard; you claim to love the Lord, but do not follow His word. You claim to teach the truth of His word; yet you do not know the basics. You are easily discernable. There seems to be an inverse relationship in this forum. The more devout the further away from the truth you all appear to be.

It is not surprising to me however that this relationship exists for religion is man at his worst, not at His best and the more religious the worse. Chrsitians are all about a SINGLE person who come to Him by faith alone, trust in Him alone to transform one life and count on Him alone to perfect it and bring one home to heaven. You trust in your religion. You can say what you want and you can play by the legalistic playbook, but at the end of the road, it is you that will stand all by yourself to give an account. It is, has been and will continue to be your choice.