Protestants and Mary

[rchapm77]

Glad you are at peace! Praying for you BornAgain! Go wherever Christ leads you…don’t ignore any call! And be prepared to defend our Blessed Mother when your fellow protestant brothers and sisters attack her!

God Bless,
Therese

Amen, praying for you too BornAgain, please don’t think of yourself as leaving the catholic church, but as simply worshiping and fellowshiping with differant brothers and sisters for awhile. There is only one church, God bless you wherever you are lead to worship Him.

p.s. don’t expect all protestants to attack her.

 

[rchapm77]

Because i do feel that God built one church and not 25 thousand churches. I also, believe that the Catholic church does have it right in regards to must of what it teaches. I just challenge some edicts that they proclaim. Mary being one of them (however, I am trying to be careful in not insulting any of Gods people for I give Mary the respect do for she is indeed blessed amongst woman since she birthed our Lord, but that is where I think it should stop just as it should stop as Moses being the law giver to the Israelite. Moses said it himself several times to understand Gods word and not solely on Moses. Also, he warned them whole heartfelt not to reject the coming messiah who would be greater than he.

I also challange the infalibility charge on to the pope but that is for another post/thread

Amen!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

p.s. don’t expect all protestants to attack her.

Sorry, I meant to put “some” in there.

And you’re right!

If God is calling you (OP) to do this…then, obey!
I love how you still have a devotion to our Lady, though!

http://bestsmileys.com/flowers/2.gif Therese

 

[rchapm77]

The woman in Revelation is giving birth to one the dragon wants to destroy. That would be a description of what was really going on at the nativity. The Church did not give birth to Jesus, Mary did. THe woman in Rev. 12 is Mary

Thank you, I think your right that passage does seem like more of a nativity discription.

 

[Seraphim25]

Truly, you are the only person who has a sound mind. However, I don’t have the problem that Mary had original sin before Jesus conception and no personal sin before Jesus because in Jewish tradition you weren’t responsible for personal sin until 13 I believe? Therefore, If the Holy spirit cleansed her of original sin by conception I would agree to this. For all who accept the Lord are cleansed from original sin and personal sin if we commit it.

For Ezekiel was cleansed while having a vision in heaven and seeing Gods throne by one of the cherubim or seraphim’s can’t recall by dipping his tongue in some coals as it were. So needless to say that it is possible for God to heal one from original sin without going to the Jewish temples and offering sacrifice for sin.

But most folks on here attest that Mary was sinless at birth and not cleansed by it from the Holy spirit?? so what is truly the truth then?

 

[elvisman]

Truly, you are the only person who has a sound mind. However, I don’t have the problem that Mary had original sin before Jesus conception and no personal sin before Jesus because in Jewish tradition you weren’t responsible for personal sin until 13 I believe? Therefore, If the Holy spirit cleansed her of original sin by conception I would agree to this. For all who accept the Lord are cleansed from original sin and personal sin if we commit it.

For Ezekiel was cleansed while having a vision in heaven and seeing Gods throne by one of the cherubim or seraphim’s can’t recall by dipping his tongue in some coals as it were. So needless to say that it is possible for God to heal one from original sin without going to the Jewish temples and offering sacrifice for sin.

But most folks on here attest that Mary was sinless at birth and not cleansed by it from the Holy spirit?? so what is truly the truth then?

If you go back and read the posts - there are many of them that have already answered this.

Anybody who contends that Mary did not need a Savior is just plain wrong. Mary DID need a savior - but not because she was born into sin. She was saved from sin prior to her conception. The ancient analogy that I presented earlier was this:
Whereas, we fall into the mud (of sin) and are pulled out of it by God’s grace - Mary was saved from falling into that mud before she was able to fall in.

**Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, which was an OT type of Mary.
****Whereas the symbols of God’s word were contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word - in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the Old Testament Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled, how much more pure and undefiled would the vessel that actually carried God have to be? **
**Non-Catholics charge that it doesn’t matter who gave birth to Jesus. They say that Jesus could have been born from anybody and still been the Messiah - he could have even been born of a harlot. **
Yes, Jesus could have been born of a harlot – but in order to fulfill all righteousness, his coming had to be more glorious than the Old Testament type. He chose Mary out of all of the women in history to be his mother.
New Testament fulfillments of types found in the Old Testament are more glorious and perfect than the type itself. This rule of Scripture is without exception.

 

[Dokimas]

You missed my point.
You also did not address my argument about Mary’s role as the New Eve.
I even backed it up with Scripture - your last court of arbitration.

What was your point I missed?​

As for your argument that Mary is the New Eve - in your own words ‘hogwash’. I guess you can make Scripture say what you want to back up what you want to believe by reading into it what you want to. It seems better to let the Bible speak for itself and not read into it understandings that just aren’t there.

 

[Dokimas]

Hogwash.
PLEASE show me where it says this in Scripture. All it says is that they were interceding on behalf of the holy ones.

God doesn’t need anybody to bring prayers directed at Him.
Try again.

Were you looking for these?

Re 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty–four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Re 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.

 

[CWBetts]

What was your point I missed?​

As for your argument that Mary is the New Eve - in your own words ‘hogwash’. I guess you can make Scripture say what you want to back up what you want to believe by reading into it what you want to. It seems better to let the Bible speak for itself and not read into it understandings that just aren’t there.

Oh Mary most definitely is the new Eve! This is why Jesus calls Mary “Woman,” to hearken back to the Garden of Eden, and as Eve is the “mother of all living” Mary is Mother of all in the Church!

 

[Dokimas]

Elvis: Gee - I thought you Protestants held to Romans 3:10, 23 when it comes to the nobody being “Righteous”. You’re always using that one against Mary’s sinlessness.

I guess you don’t know what we believe. Romans 3 speaks of everyone that is not in Christ. Once we’re in Christ the following takes over…

2 Corintians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

 

[CWBetts]

I guess you don’t know what we believe. Romans 3 speaks of everyone that is not in Christ. Once we’re in Christ the following takes over…

2 Corintians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

And Mary was in him just the same—only she was made righteous from conception

 

[elvisman]

What was your point I missed?

Because Jesus was using HYPERBOLE to get his point across - and he WAS including himself to make this point.
I guess that just went over your head.​

As for your argument that Mary is the New Eve - in your own words ‘hogwash’. I guess you can make Scripture say what you want to back up what you want to believe by reading into it what you want to. It seems better to let the Bible speak for itself and not read into it understandings that just aren’t there.

Much of Scriptural prophecy is not explicit, but implicit - and must be read into in order to understand it’s meaning and fulfillment.
Case in point - Jesus is not a lamb or a vine, yet Scripture calls him this (John 1:29, 1:36, 15:1-6). Your assertion that this is not the case is a statement of ignorance.

Remember that the Bible came from the Church - not the Church from the Bible.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Because Jesus was using HYPERBOLE to get his point across - and he WAS including himself to make this point.
I guess that just went over your head.​

Much of Scriptural prophecy is not explicit, but implicit - and must be read into in order to understand it’s meaning and fulfillment.
Case in point - Jesus is not a lamb or a vine, yet Scripture calls him this (John 1:29, 1:36, 15:1-6). Your assertion that this is not the case is a statement of ignorance.

Remember that the Bible came from the Church - not the Church from the Bible.

The Bible is God-breathed and came from God Himself as revelation from above. Please give me Scripture showing that the Bible came from the Church.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Dokimas]

Oh Mary most definitely is the new Eve! This is why Jesus calls Mary “Woman,” to hearken back to the Garden of Eden, and as Eve is the “mother of all living” Mary is Mother of all in the Church!

Well at least it would appear the RCC (CC) teaches it as fact. Teaching something as fact doesn’t make it fact.​

The straightforward conclusion is that Jesus was not referring back to Eve in Gen 3. A lot of women in the Bible are called ‘women’ and they are refered back to Gen 3.

 

[elvisman]

Were you looking for these?

Re 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty–four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Re 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.

**These passages speak of the intercession that is going on in Heaven on our behalf. You are failing to see the polyvalent symbolism that is happening and are only seeing the symbolism as it applies to the OT.

 

[Dokimas]

Because Jesus was using HYPERBOLE to get his point across - and he WAS including himself to make this point.
I guess that just went over your head.​

Much of Scriptural prophecy is not explicit, but implicit - and must be read into in order to understand it’s meaning and fulfillment.
Case in point - Jesus is not a lamb or a vine, yet Scripture calls him this (John 1:29, 1:36, 15:1-6). Your assertion that this is not the case is a statement of ignorance.

Remember that the Bible came from the Church - not the Church from the Bible.

You are quite proud of your knowledge. WOW.​

The Bible came from the Holy Spirit, NOT from the church.​

Jesus was not including Himself, IMO. That was what so interesting about the conversation. The poor man didn’t know he was speaking to God, meaning he was correct all along that Jesus was good. Jesus was teaching all who has ears to hear and hearts to understand: there in none righteous or good. Righteousness and goodness is ONLY in Christ Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

The Bible is God-breathed and came from God Himself as revelation from above. Please give me Scripture showing that the Bible came from the Church.

This is about as silly as trying to prove Sola Scriptura. THAT isn’t in Scripture, either - neither is ALL revealed truth. THAT was promised to the Church (John 16:12-15). ALL truth comes from God - through (not BY) his Church (1 Tim. 3:15)

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

It CERTAINLY is.

 

[Dokimas]

And Mary was in him just the same—only she was made righteous from conception

Thanks for your opinion. I disagree.

 

[elvisman]

You are quite proud of your knowledge. WOW.

**NOPE - just quite joyful to belong to God’s Church and not some divorced faction thereof.​

The Bible came from the Holy Spirit, NOT from the church.

The Bible came FROM the Holy Spirit THROUGH the Church.
Deny that and you deny the words of Jesus Himself (John 16:12-15, Acts 9:4-5).

 

[Dokimas]

This is about as silly as trying to prove Sola Scriptura. THAT isn’t in Scripture, either - neither is ALL revealed truth. THAT was promised to the Church (John 16:12-15). ALL truth comes from God - through (not BY) his Church (1 Tim. 3:15)

It CERTAINLY is.

What is worse, being ignorant of fairly minor teachings or to teach things that are not correct?​

I’ll take possible ignorance. You can have possible false teaching.