Protestants and Mary

[CWBetts]

Mary was in Him (or He was in her) when she assented to Coceive and carry Jesus in her womb. It was her acceptance by faith that made her righteous and just in the sight of God. However, before that act of the will, she could not have been made sinless. We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), same thing with Mary.

No one is claiming Mary saved herself! We are not saying Mary earned salvation, it is just that she was saved from sin from her conception. What is so hard to understand?

 

[fbl9]

fbl9;5819062:

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1Corintians 8:2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know./

I can say that there is nothing I’ve read in the Bible and now read in the posts of many of those here who are part of the CC that have changed my mind.

From the knowledge given to me the Marian doctrines are something you ought to know but it your choice to reject them as truth.

 

[fbl9]

Only One Body (church) with One Head. He’s perfect; we’re imperfect and will be so until Heaven when we give up or mortality.​

The One church is not my church nor your church nor the one in Rome. It’s the Body of Christ.

But the body of Christ is not divided. To whom shall me and you go to, to settle our dispute over Mary?

 

[bookgirl32]

Before I can answer this question, could you point me to the verses that says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I am aware that the Bible says Jesus IS the Truth.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Bengoshi]

As for you thinking the Church is merely important – that’s the difference. We believe it to be the Body of Christ, of which he is the Head. It is not merely an “organization”.

Exactly! Protestants agree to this 100%!

 

[Bengoshi]

Also in Romans when St Paul instructs the church to be unified despite differances on disputable matters, he does not say be unified only if you agree with your brothers on everything. We are to accept each other and not pass judgment inspite of differances not only in the absence of differances.

Correct! Again, I woul like to recommend the book “CONVICTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE” by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes. It discusses the essential and disputable matters for Christians.

 

[Bengoshi]

Still over your head: it’s not the telling that makes you judgmental, it’s the how. There is no doubt that you look down at non-catholic Christians.

I noticed that as well. We can always debate and argue without exuding a condescending attitude towards our interlocutors.

 

[Bengoshi]

You may know Catholic doctrine, but you really have no clue about me and my motives. If your fellow Catholics are honest with you, it is you that sound angry at non-Catholics and not me toward your belief system.

Amen!

 

[Bengoshi]

At least we can agree on that. I would like to know how the reformation really helped? But that should probably be on a new thread.

Hello!

I think history (Bokenkotter, A Concise History of the Catholic Church and Shelley, Church History in Plain Language)would attest that the Protestant Reformation has in one way or another helped the Catholic Church in cleaning up its ranks and practices. The Counter-Reformation is proof to this. Even the initiatives of the Second Vatican Council was paved by the challenges of Protestantism. So, in a way, Rome has something to be grateful about. The RCC as we know it today would not be so were it not for the challenges posed by the Protestant Reformers.

 

[Bengoshi]

Yep Christ left us with a church that is floundering along unsure if it is truly teaching the truth…Note the s…you seem to imply that there is more than one true church.

The Bible speaks of both Church and churches. The Church is the body of Christ, the body of belivers of Christ, while churches refer to the local churches. Paul uses these distinctions in his letters.

 

[Bengoshi]

Please excuse my delay; I have only now read your response to my post. Thank you for being honest. About the catholic’s position when it comes to the Blessed Mother, we by know means make her superior to God; though many would disagree. We are devoted to her as doting children such as myself, but Christ is always first; He is within me and all around me. She brings us closer to Him; who else can know Him better than the Father and His Mother.

I can assume that you place Christ first in your life; but how do you explain this to those who are jews or non-trinitarian christians. Are we as trinitarian christians idolizing Christ? Even Christ said that we should love God with all our heart, soul and mind. By loving Jesus it does not take away from the Father. The same is to the Holy Mother; by loving her it does not elevate her above Him. We love Mother Mary and so does God.

God Bless

I noticed from your posts that you are very level-headed unlike elvisman and I truly truly appreciate that! Yes, Christ is first in my life, equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit. As Trinitarians, yes, we do idolize Christ because it is alright for us to do so as He is God. We explain this by explaining the unexplainable: the Trinity. It is summed up in three categorical statements: 1) God is three persons; 2) Each person is fully God; and 3) There is one God.

However, it is a different case with Mary. It would be absolutely wrong to idolize her because she, like us, is a created being, although more blessed and privileged than us ordinary saints. For what higher honor is there than to carry our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ inside her own body? I understand how the RCC views Mary, it’s just that a lot of times, people go overboard that they seem to think Mary is superior to Christ, that He has a duty to OBEY her, being His mother. There is nothing farther from the truth.

 

[Bengoshi]

Is the Body of Christ the pillar also the pillar and foundation of truth (as the Bible says the Church is)?

And if it is, who exactly is really in the Body of Christ (and how do you know)? Because it would seem to me that in order for it to be the pillar and foundation of truth, there has to only be one truth supported by this pillar, not many conflicting ones. So it would seem that all the people in the Body that is this pillar should probably believe the same thing. So who exactly are the people that proclaim and believe the same (not similar with differences, but exactly the same) truth?

Again, there is room for some disagreement in the Church. We are humans and can NEVER perfectly understand our infinite Creator. “In essntials, unity; in non-essentials, divesity; in all things, charity.” Check out the book that I have been mentioning in this thread by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes entitled “Conviction Without Compromise.”

 

[Bengoshi]

Before I can answer this question, could you point me to the verses that says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I am aware that the Bible says Jesus IS the Truth.

Brother in Christ, there is such a verse, in fact it’s in 1 Timothy 3:15. Please be careful lest our Catholic apologist friends say that we are ignorant of Scripture. Godbless!

 

[Bengoshi]

I’m not dense at all - you’re an angry person.

First of all - NO - babies DON’T sin - even in the eyes of God. Original sin doesn’t mean that you have personally sinned. It means that we inherited sin and a sinful nature - not that we ourselves have personally sinned.
Don’t assume people are dense when it is you who has it dead wrong.

**Secondly - you don’t understand Romans 3:10, 23 to save your life. I already explained to you that this is referring Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
How can "none" be righteous when it clearly says God is in the company of the righteous??

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HYPERBOLE, my angry friend - HYPERBOLE. Read the Scriptures in context or don’t read them at all.

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St. Peter spoke well of you when he spoke of St. Pauls letters:
"In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures."

Excuse me?! You’re the one who’s angry. Even when you were replying to Dokimas, I can see your hatred and intolerance of non-Catholic Christians. Even you text color and size shows your anger. Your theology is faulty. If babies have not the stain of sin then there is no need for Christ to die for them, and according to Catholic teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation, then they would not need to be baptized either. They would just have to be content with “limbo” though.

There are righteous people by the way. Once we accept Christ into our lives as Lord and Savior, then we become righteous in the sight of God (Rom. 4:25; 5:9; 6:23; 10:9-10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 1:7; 2:4-6, 13; John 1:12-13; 1 John 1:7; Rev. 1:5).

 

[Bengoshi]

No one is claiming Mary saved herself! We are not saying Mary earned salvation, it is just that she was saved from sin from her conception. What is so hard to understand?

It’s not that it’s hard to understand. I do understand the RC position on Mary. However, such doctrines go against the basic tenets of Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith–how can Mary have faith in Jesus/God if she was still in her mother’s womb?

I did not say that the RCC teaches that Mary saved herself.What I want to correct is that Mary was saved while in the womb of her mother Anne. That teaching goes against Scripture. Iwon’t repeat what others have already stated in this thread, just the one that I stated above for no other poster has seemed to use this argument before.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s not that it’s hard to understand. I do understand the RC position on Mary. However, such doctrines go against the basic tenets of Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith–how can Mary have faith in Jesus/God if she was still in her mother’s womb?

We are saved by grace. But all that means is that salvation is free. If we are saved by faith in Jesus then are you saying that Abraham, Moses, etc are all in hell? They never knew of Jesus so never had a chance to believe in Jesus.

I did not say that the RCC teaches that Mary saved herself.What I want to correct is that Mary was saved while in the womb of her mother Anne. That teaching goes against Scripture. Iwon’t repeat what others have already stated in this thread, just the one that I stated above for no other poster has seemed to use this argument before.

What did the Angel Gabriel say? Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE. The GRACE that we are saved by, Mary was already FULL OF IT even before she conceived Jesus.

 

[benedictus2]

The Bible speaks of both Church and churches. The Church is the body of Christ, the body of belivers of Christ, while churches refer to the local churches. Paul uses these distinctions in his letters.

Correct about the local churches but these local Churches were all part of the one Catholic Church. The Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. Incorporation into the Body of Christ is by Baptism. If you have been baptized in the trinitarian way, then you are a member of the Body of Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

Hello!

I think history (Bokenkotter, A Concise History of the Catholic Church and Shelley, Church History in Plain Language)would attest that the Protestant Reformation has in one way or another helped the Catholic Church in cleaning up its ranks and practices. The Counter-Reformation is proof to this. Even the initiatives of the Second Vatican Council was paved by the challenges of Protestantism. So, in a way, Rome has something to be grateful about. The RCC as we know it today would not be so were it not for the challenges posed by the Protestant Reformers.

And the fact that we sinned brought about the Redeemer? Does that mean that sin is good?

The Catholic Church would not be where it is today if not for the protestant rebellion you are correct. She would be in a much better position, united in one Body instead of chopped up into 33,000 different pieces. She would be what Christ has prayed for. There would not be so many separated brothers and sisters.

In the end the reform happened, but not from the rebellious protesters. It came from within.

 

[benedictus2]

Still over your head: it’s not the telling that makes you judgmental, it’s the how. There is no doubt that you look down at non-catholic Christians.

I don’t think elvisman was looking down on Non-Catholics. He was looking down on the doctrine of Non-catholics. Two different things. You can’t help believing what you believe because you probably grew up in that belief or else was poorly catechized or heave a moral disagreement with the Church.

It is a case of condemn the doctrine, but love the believer.

I have no doubt that non-Catholics are sincere in their desire to follow Christ. They are just a little bit misguided as to what Christ is about.

But then again, that probably stems from years of being fed distorted theology and probably a lot of lies as well about what the Catholics actually believe.

But now that you are here, then there is a chance to rectify your erroenous perceptions.

 

[bookgirl32]

Correct! Again, I woul like to recommend the book “CONVICTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE” by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes. It discusses the essential and disputable matters for Christians.

Who was the final, inspired and infallible authority on what was essential?