Protestants and Mary

[emseguin]

Dear elvisman,

Thank you for being a warrior for Christ and His true Chruch.
I just came back from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in which we witnessed the life, death, and ressurrection of Christ, present, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

I have never experienced anything like this forum, but am so grateful to you and others on here that are the salt and light of the world.

It is most difficult to battle statements that truly do not make sense, are from emotion rather than fact, and based on 40000+ denominations of interpretations. Then twisted, then taken the wrong way, oh, its so bizzare! Much like Satan, he messes everything up, juggles it, confuses, leads astray, makes people uncomfortable, especially with the beautiful person of MARY.
Many are out to hurt, to lead astray, and well, I am thankful that they are on this forum, amoung solid Catholics like you.

Keep fighting the good fight, our Lord is blessing you.

Peace of Christ,
God bless!

 

[historyb]

I must say you all must stop insisting and typing the “40000+ denominational” spill. There are not 30,000 or 40,000 denominations there is at the most 6 and off shouts under there. It makes us look silly when we can’t even correctly show we have an inkling of what we are talking about.

 

[rchapm77]

But the Bible doesn’t “teach”. Case in point there are over 40,000 denominations that claim that the very same Bible “teaches” different things. Since all of these are claiming to be just from the Bible, then none of them are false teachings? That’s not possible, God revealed only one truth, not different versions of it.

And this verse does support Scripture as being part of what “fully equips” us. It also doesn’t disprove Sacred Tradition, it doesn’t say that 1)it is the ONLY thing that is useful, or that 2) there are not other things that are useful. Many other times the apostles speak of what they write, AND what they say. It’s not an “either / or”, it’s a “both / and”.

Yes I think you are right, but it seems like such a dangerous thing, because now we would be put in the position of trying to decide what is truth and what isn’t. I’m begining to understand that the catholic church has faith that its leadership is being lead by the Spirit into what is true and what isn’t. This is alot for me to consider… Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[emseguin]

Dear Historyb

I must say you all must stop insisting and typing the “40000+ denominational” spill. There are not 30,000 or 40,000 denominations there is at the most 6 and off shouts under there. It makes us look silly when we can’t even correctly show we have an inkling of what we are talking about.

Please provide the 6 you are talking about, and where I can find that there are only 6?

Here is a few more than 6
Adventists
Anabaptist
Baptist
Calvinist
Charismatic
Church of England
Congregational
Episcopalian
Lutheran
Methodist / Wesleyan
Nazarene
Pentecostal
Plymouth Brethren
Presbyterian
Puritans
Religious Society of Friends (Quaker)
Reformed

Look at all the branches (denominations) of baptists!
Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference (Sweden)
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Black Primitive Baptists
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Convention of Baptist Churches of Northern Circars
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptist
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
Nagaland Baptist Church Council
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
Nigerian Baptist Convention
North American Baptist Conference
North Bank Baptist Christian Association
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Primitive Baptist
Progressive Baptist
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptist
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptist
Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches
Separate Baptist
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist
Southeast Conservative Baptist
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union d’Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Fellowship
Restoration movement
Seventh-day Adventist
Waldensians

And this is just Baptist!
Now, talk to me about Authority Hisalone?
what were you saying?
Cause I think you are all hearing different Words of God:blush:

Peace

 

[rchapm77]

Dear rchapm77
But how, if the Bible is the ONLY source of Faith, and faith outside is not possible, or infallible, either way, how can that be since the Bible cannot talk back? You cannot have a conversation with the Bible!
It is a book to be interpreted, not by whoever, but by someone appointed by God, someone whom Christ hada relationship with makes a lot more sense than someone born in 1517 or a wacko like Joseph Smith. (Sorry, but I believe him to be a complete wacko:shrug

JMJ

I’m glad you bring up Joseph Smith, (btw most protestants think he is a wacko too, not only that but a false prophet who started what is basically a cult.) he is a classic example of why protestants don’t like the idea of finding truth in additon to the bible, or seeing authority outside of it. If his followers had viewed only the bible as the source of essential truth they never would have accepted his false teachings.

 

[historyb]

Dear Historyb

Please provide the 6 you are talking about, and where I can find that there are only 6?

Here is a few more than 6
Adventists
Anabaptist
Baptist
Calvinist
Charismatic
Church of England
Congregational
Episcopalian
Lutheran
Methodist / Wesleyan
Nazarene
Pentecostal
Plymouth Brethren
Presbyterian
Puritans
Religious Society of Friends (Quaker)
Reformed

Look at all the branches (denominations) of baptists!
Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference (Sweden)
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Black Primitive Baptists
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Convention of Baptist Churches of Northern Circars
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptist
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
Nagaland Baptist Church Council
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
Nigerian Baptist Convention
North American Baptist Conference
North Bank Baptist Christian Association
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Primitive Baptist
Progressive Baptist
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptist
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptist
Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches
Separate Baptist
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist
Southeast Conservative Baptist
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union d’Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Fellowship
Restoration movement
Seventh-day Adventist
Waldensians

And this is just Baptist!
Now, talk to me about Authority Hisalone?
what were you saying?
Cause I think you are all hearing different Words of God:blush:

Peace

I am off to mass so I will respond later, from your second list they are all still Baptist. They are Baptist, Presbyterian (also includes reformed), Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, and Pentecostal/Charismatic. That is actually it the others in your list are sub under those headings.

If we want to properly dialog we need to learn better on both sides

 

[rchapm77]

Dear rchapm77

Anyway, please answer the following then on Mary

Book of Genesis (3:15): “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

The NIV reads “he shall crush thy head…”

She is the new Eve, and you say we dont read the Scriptures!
The doctrine of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of men is contained in the fact that she is the antitype of Eve: Eve is our natural mother because she is the origin of our natural life; so Mary is our spiritual mother because she is the origin of our spiritual life.

In both accounts, Jesus addressed Mary by the term woman. In Hebrew the word used by Jesus was a term which would be addressed to a queen or a woman of high rank. It was a term of great respect.

Jesus also refers to the canaanite woman in Matt 15: 28 as woman. Though I’m not sure if it is the same hebrew word.

But why did Jesus Christ address His Mother by the term woman at these two significant moments in His life — at His first public miracle, and at His Crucifixion on the Cross?

I don’t know.

Who is the “woman” in the text of Holy Scripture of whom Almighty God set enmities against Satan? Who is “her seed”? What is meant by the words “and she shall crush thy head”?

I don’t really have a problem with Mary being the 2nd Eve as Jesus is the 2nd Adam. But scripture does clearly state that Jesus is to be thought of as the 2nd Adam, I know of nothing in scripture that clearly states Mary as the 2nd Eve. Not saying that it is not true just that I can’t be certain of it.

Those who are leary of Mary, or have no belief in Mary and her important ROLE, not worshipped or equal with Christ, BUT role, well are only led by a certain SOMEONE who has the biggest problem with Mary…and we all know who what SOMEONE is.

And if the Angel Gabriel address Mary as “Hail”, then that is proof enough, them being pure and united to God, well come on!
:clapping:
No one Hails to someone if they are “just” a mother to carry the Son of God and well, see ya later Mary!
Maybe there is indeed more to Gabriel’s greeting than I have thought in the past.
Praise be to God

Peace of Christ to you!
JMJ

Peace to you too

 

[rchapm77]

wow man! I really think you need to read the bible my brother in Christ…For those who confess that Christ is Lord and Adheres to his voice belong to Christ. Therefore, I know my Lord my king and my brother because I hear his voice and follow him. Tell me how does this contradict the teachings of the church?

Amen!

 

[rchapm77]

**And, unfortunately for the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura is not only NOT **supported by Scripture - it’s debunked by the very scriptures Protestants hold to be the only source of truth.

The Bible itself points to the Church being the “pillar and foundation of truth” - NOT the Bible (1 Tim. 3:15) and credits with the Church having all authority - NOT the Bible (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

The Bible itself also puts that Sacred Tradition on par with the Scriptures as being authoritative (2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Tim. 12:14).

The scriptures do seem to support some of your points.

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m glad you bring up Joseph Smith, (btw most protestants think he is a wacko too, not only that but a false prophet who started what is basically a cult.) he is a classic example of why protestants don’t like the idea of finding truth in additon to the bible, or seeing authority outside of it. If his followers had viewed only the bible as the source of essential truth they never would have accepted his false teachings.

Joseph Smith and his followers might argue in the same vein that had the followers of Thomas & Alexander Campbell viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted their false teachings and become Disciples of Christ c. 1827; the Disciples of Christ might argue that had the followers of Philip Otterbein & Martin Boehn viewed only the Bible, they would never have accepted their false teachings and become United Brethren c. 1800; the United Brethren might argue that had the followers of Samuel Seabury viewed only the Bible, they would never have accepted his false teachings and become Episcopalian c. 1789; the Episcopalians might argue that had the followers of the 60 Preachers viewed only the Bible, they would never have become Methodist Episcopal c. 1784; the Methodist Episcopals might argue that had the followers of Theophilus Lindey viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Unitarian c. 1774; the Unitarians might argue that had the followers of John and Charles Wesley viwed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted their false teachings and become Methodists c. 1739; the Methodists might argue that had the followers of Jacaob Amman viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Amish c. 1693; the Amish might argue that had the followers of George Fox viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Quakers c. 1649; the Quakers might argue that had the followers of Michaelis Jones viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Dutch Reformed c. 1682; the Dutch Reformed might argue that had the followers of John Smyth viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Baptist c. 1609; the Baptists might argue that had the followers of Robert Brown viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Congregationalist c. 1582…the Anabaptists would argue that had the followers of Martin Luther viewed only the Bible, they wouldn’t have accepted his false teachings and become Lutheran c. 1517.

I’m afraid viewing only the Bible isn’t working. :nope:

PAX

 

[Jehoshua]

If the the first century church only followed the holy scriptures then we’d have no bible as we know it since it was first compiled (in full) by catholics later in the history of christendom. If Sola Scriptura was true then what would the early church have done without any bibles? The new testament wasn;t around so everything from that clearly couldn;t be true since it wasn;t “Sola Scriptura” or even scripture at that time.

Sola Scriptura is a logical fallacy. Just looking at the early church invalidates the theory considering there was no christian scripture to base the doctrine on.

---

On the original question about protestants and mary they don;t have the same traditions on Mary as it isn;t in the holy scriptures, and since they ignore the sacred tradition that is past down to all churches that have valid historical roots in the apostolic past. Even the Assyrian church of the east, a nestorian church believes in the importance of mary as the greatest of saints. Since protestants ignore history thats the reason they dismiss anything that comes down from the past in unbroken tradition. That and they associated it with Catholics.

 

[fbl9]

Just what did Jesus mean when He said of himself “the Son of Man…etc” Is He the son of Joseph?

Understanding Mary as the new Eve helps one to understand that through Mary can Jesus call Himself the son of man.Just as Eve was sinless so to is Mary the new Eve.

 

[elvisman]

Calling some of us anti-Catholic or Catholic haters, for example. There have been times you said some of us ‘bore false witness’ and that’s bee incorrect. I’ve called you on both issues and, to my knowledge, you have not answered me.​

Saying someone bears false witness when they do not, then it is you who bears false witness. I’ve cautioned you against doing what you accuse others of doing.

I haven’t born false witness against anybody.
I was judging you by your fruits (Matt. 7:16) - and they were rotten, my friend.**

If you don’t want to sound anti-Catholic - stop the attacks.

 

[elvisman]

wow man! I really think you need to read the bible my brother in Christ…For those who confess that Christ is Lord and Adheres to his voice belong to Christ. Therefore, I know my Lord my king and my brother because I hear his voice and follow him. Tell me how does this contradict the teachings of the church?

If you reject his Church - you reject him. It’s that simple.

Speaking of needing the Bible - you need to know the word of God because Jesus tells us very thing about his Church:

Luke 10:16
*Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." *

Acts 9:4-5
**He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" **
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

 

[elvisman]

I question if you really understood what I wrote? Re-read what I stated agan and stop putting words into my mouth. I pray that you will stop making yourself mad and twisting what others say to you.

**You need to speak and write more clearly. Don’t use childish metaphors like dog-dung when speaking opf the Church. **
On the other hand - maybe I should cut you some slack because you’re just not that articulate.

 

[elvisman]

Dear elvisman,

Thank you for being a warrior for Christ and His true Chruch.
I just came back from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in which we witnessed the life, death, and ressurrection of Christ, present, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.

I have never experienced anything like this forum, but am so grateful to you and others on here that are the salt and light of the world.

It is most difficult to battle statements that truly do not make sense, are from emotion rather than fact, and based on 40000+ denominations of interpretations. Then twisted, then taken the wrong way, oh, its so bizzare! Much like Satan, he messes everything up, juggles it, confuses, leads astray, makes people uncomfortable, especially with the beautiful person of MARY.
Many are out to hurt, to lead astray, and well, I am thankful that they are on this forum, amoung solid Catholics like you.

Keep fighting the good fight, our Lord is blessing you.

Peace of Christ,
God bless!

Praise God for your return to His Body, my friend!!

 

[elvisman]

I must say you all must stop insisting and typing the “40000+ denominational” spill. There are not 30,000 or 40,000 denominations there is at the most 6 and off shouts under there. It makes us look silly when we can’t even correctly show we have an inkling of what we are talking about.

Whereas, the number often does get exaggerated - "6" is ridiculously low.
There are, indeed tens of thousands and that has been proven time and time again on this board.
By the way - the number 33,000 is from a non-Catholic publication.

 

[elvisman]

The scriptures do seem to support some of your points.

**Then, enlighten me.
Some of the responses I get from Dokimas and others are very short and vague.
Wanna prove me wrong? Then do it.

Show me the Scriptures that prove me wrong. Show me the Scriptures that PROVE Sola Scriptura.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I must say you all must stop insisting and typing the “40000+ denominational” spill. There are not 30,000 or 40,000 denominations there is at the most 6 and off shouts under there. It makes us look silly when we can’t even correctly show we have an inkling of what we are talking about.

Here’s the source for the +33,000 number…
**World Christian Encyclopedia **
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195103181/