Protestants and mortal sin

[clem456]

I take cheap shots? I am so sorry if that is how you read my postings. I have enormous respect for the Roman Catholic Church. It gave great joy to me to see our two heads (the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury) meet and pray together, as they have done for generations.

Because we disagree on numerous issues (and the Church has always had disagreement within it), it doesn’t mean that there is animosity. Quite the contrary! We are all part of Christ’s Body.

Ok, I’ll keep that in mind. My bad.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

This isn’t about your views of abortion, nor mine, nor the Episcopal Church’s. That was stated earlier. I won’t go there with you.

Health care is what birth control is. That is why women go to their OB-GYN or men go to the drug store.

I would be careful to generalize that is why women go to their OB-GYN. I don’t think that is necessarily true. There are other reasons for women to visit their OB-GYN.

As for that is why men go to the drugstore, again, I would be careful in generalizing. There are many other reasons for men (and women) to go to the drugstore. There are many different medications and other things that a drugstore carries besides birth control related items.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I would be careful to generalize that is why women go to their OB-GYN. I don’t think that is necessarily true. There are other reasons for women to visit their OB-GYN.

As for that is why men go to the drugstore, again, I would be careful in generalizing. There are many other reasons for men (and women) to go to the drugstore. There are many different medications and other things that a drugstore carries besides birth control related items.

Of course. Point well taken. I should have phrased it differently. Women go to their doctors or to medical clinics to get most of their birth control. It is a medical issue. Men get their birth control at the drug store (or other retail places) because it is over the counter and freely available. That is all I meant.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Episcopal Church does not keep a list of what is sinful in the way that the Roman Catholic Church does. For instance, the RCC (as well as LDS) teaches that masturbation is sinful. Most Episcopalians would scratch their heads over that. It would make no sense. So no, we don’t keep lists that you would find in the Catechism.

Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there. Remember many of our priests are women, and that helps.

Thanks. I asked because I am not familiar with non-Catholic Christian religions.

As for sins in Catholicism, they are those that are against the Ten Commandments which include its spirit (example looking at a woman with lust is adultery) and the Six Church Commandments basically.

Masturbation is considered a sin that needs to be confessed because it deliberately uses the sexual faculty outside of marriage contrary to its purpose.

Birth control / abortion is sin because it prevents/ kills unborn babies thus interfering with God’s prerogative. In the latter, the question would be when does life begin? Is it when the baby still in the mother’s womb, John’s mother said her baby jumped in her womb, or after birth? Catholic’s position is the former or specifically during conception.
":

How do they determine what is sinful then? Is it up to the individuals?

In our General Confession, recited at each Mass, we say:

‘We confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.’

And our priest gives us absolution.

I know when I have sinned in thought, word, and deed. When I have not loved God, not loved my neighbor. I know when God is calling me to repent of certain things because I have a prayer life and I am told in the Gospel how to be holy before God.

It’s different between us, I understand that.

It sounds very lenient then when it is up to one’s interpretation. How do I know when I do not love God and my neighbors? Without what the Church’s telling us what sins are, we are left to our own criteria of what constitutes them, depending on our own preference.

The prayer for the general confession is fine but without getting to the specific, it is just that, general confession only. In reality when we sinned, the sin is often very specific. God wants us to regret that.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Thank you,

You did a good job of making your points

Allow me to begin my reply with a question: WWJD… What WOULD Jesus Do?
Did Jesus overlook sin, or make excuses for it? No, when forgiving sins as He always did, He said cf. “GO and sin No-More.”

We live in different times and circumstances, with perhaps a higher degree of peer-influence. It’s easy now to think that because everyone else is doing it, it must be OK for Me to do it too. BUT is that thee [always singular per defined issue] truth? No, it’s not.
The culprit again is “culpability” = the degree of guilt based on what we know AND what we can and ought to know; what we CAN know,

Contraception on a broad scale is a recent innovation of the 20th Century. Prior to that and aligning somewhat with the rising divorce rate, spurned on my the “Women’s Lib” movement and the 60’s “free-sex” attitudes; morality and older-established values were ignored, overridden, and overturned in favor of what remains evident today; the age of “MESISM.” It’s MY body, it’s ONLY wrong if I say that its wrong; don’t judge me and I won’t judge you either.

Your second point is a WOW!

Abortion is murder

Thou shalt not KILL is the 5th Commandment [God’s Law, not a Catholic invention], so the fact that ANY Christian church seems OK with it is alarming. Such a position clearly holds that that pastor believes that he [or she?] knows more and OR knows better than does GOD Himself.

I find it not too unusual that “the RCC” positions are held as being solely of their OWN making or choosing. And that too is frightening; because as the direct and exclusive holders of ALL of the keys to heaven gate; and being directly and exclusively CHARGED with Cf. “YOU! Go and teach the world ALL that I have taught to YOU,” this presumption to “Bible believing Christians” is scary.

Mt 16:18-19: “ [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, [singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]And I will give to YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Mt 28:19-20 [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

In my prior post I was careful to provide both Logical and Biblical evidence of the teaching-positions commanded by OUR-God.

God Bless you
PJM

 

[PJM]

I have no problem with San Francisco or classical liberalism. Great city and people like everywhere else. It’s not about San Francisco.
The Gospel should be proclaimed liberally with passion. And truthfully.

Moral relativism is a problem. When a church can talk about social justice out of one side of the mouth and look the other way in the face of gross injustice to the defenseless, how can it be taken seriously? All Christians do it to one extent or the other, but not all church’s waffle in their actual teaching.

And also, this poster has a history of taking cheap shots at the Catholic Church, which hey, we’re all adults and we can take it, but let’s not be shocked when people want to respond to it.

AMEN

 

[PJM]

I take cheap shots? I am so sorry if that is how you read my postings. I have enormous respect for the Roman Catholic Church. It gave great joy to me to see our two heads (the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury) meet and pray together, as they have done for generations.

Because we disagree on numerous issues (and the Church has always had disagreement within it), it doesn’t mean that there is animosity. Quite the contrary! We are all part of Christ’s Body.

Body? yes; FAITH; NO!

So my friend, does TRUTH have to be [can only be] singular per defined issue?

Easter Blessings,

PJM

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Thanks. I asked because I am not familiar with non-Catholic Christian religions.

It sounds very lenient then when it is up to one’s interpretation. How do I know when I do not love God and my neighbors? Without what the Church’s telling us what sins are, we are left to our own criteria of what constitutes them, depending on our own preference.

The prayer for the general confession is fine but without getting to the specific, it is just that, general confession only. In reality when we sinned, the sin is often very specific. God wants us to regret that.

General confession covers many things, and I would imagine that it is up to us a praying Christians, to work with our priest or spiritual director on specific sins that get in the way of our relationship with God. And of course we are able to confess to a priest individually if we need to.

The difference, in my own thoughts, is that in my tradition, there isn’t a ‘you must do this; you mustn’t do that’ kind of teaching. It’s very different. Our sacraments are the same; our liturgies are the same (sometimes you cannot tell if the Eucharist is Roman or Anglican.) Our history is bound together. But there IS a difference in regard to how we teach what you call ‘faith and morals.’

PS. I know of Catholic communities where the priest doesn’t hear private confessions; he will use the General Confession in Mass and give a blanket absolution. If there is an extreme need for personal confession, he makes himself available, but as a rule, no.

 

[clem456]

General confession covers many things, and I would imagine that it is up to us a praying Christians, to work with our priest or spiritual director on specific sins that get in the way of our relationship with God. And of course we are able to confess to a priest individually if we need to.

The difference, in my own thoughts, is that in my tradition, there isn’t a ‘you must do this; you mustn’t do that’ kind of teaching. It’s very different. Our sacraments are the same; our liturgies are the same (sometimes you cannot tell if the Eucharist is Roman or Anglican.) Our history is bound together. But there IS a difference in regard to how we teach what you call ‘faith and morals.’

PS. I know of Catholic communities where the priest doesn’t hear private confessions; he will use the General Confession in Mass and give a blanket absolution. If there is an extreme need for personal confession, he makes himself available, but as a rule, no.

So you speak about what your community does not teach with conviction.

Then for the sake of discussion, can we nail this down a bit? What does your community teach with conviction?
For instance:
The Catholic Church proclaims the faith of Christ, and proclaims a morality that is based on man discovering and serving the good, through his thoughts prayers and actions.
This good is God himself. Nothing less. Lesser goods would be human choices and feelings. Good things, but subject to God and the good of others.

Through morality man becomes more fully human. Central to being fully human is respect for human existence and flourishing. All people should be encouraged and exhorted to be fully human. The denial of humanity in one instance detracts from the humanity of all people, and contributes to barbarism.
For instance, separating the sex act from it’s design and purpose detracts from the good of the spouses and society in general, and has tragic, if hidden, consequences for all of society.

So all of this has God as it’s focus and end, and the good of humanity as it’s result.
What is your morality based on? How is it consistent?
(morality must be consistent, or it is not morality, it is whim)

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

General confession covers many things, and I would imagine that it is up to us a praying Christians, to work with our priest or spiritual director on specific sins that get in the way of our relationship with God. And of course we are able to confess to a priest individually if we need to.

The difference, in my own thoughts, is that in my tradition, there isn’t a ‘you must do this; you mustn’t do that’ kind of teaching. It’s very different. Our sacraments are the same; our liturgies are the same (sometimes you cannot tell if the Eucharist is Roman or Anglican.) Our history is bound together. But there IS a difference in regard to how we teach what you call ‘faith and morals.’

PS. I know of Catholic communities where the priest doesn’t hear private confessions; he will use the General Confession in Mass and give a blanket absolution. If there is an extreme need for personal confession, he makes himself available, but as a rule, no.

First, not all of the sacraments are the same. Baptism is (as long as the Trinitarian formula is used), but the rest, AFAIK, are not. When i became Catholic, I had to be Confirmed and receive First Holy Communion, even though I did both when I was Protestant. The only sacrament that counted was Baptism, which I was already baptized and provided the paperwork to prove same.

Also, you can tell that the Eucharist is RCC or Protestant. First, there are things that are said that in the RCC that are not said in Protestant denominations. Secondly, the bread and wine are transformed into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus.

As for that Catholic community you mention, I would be careful in saying it unless you know for yourself first hand that it is true. Besides, unless there is an extenuating circumstance (like war, for example), there cannot be general absolution and penitents must confess their sins directly to the priest, in private.

How are faith and morals taught in your faith tradition?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

As for that Catholic community you mention, I would be careful in saying it unless you know for yourself first hand that it is true. Besides, unless there is an extenuating circumstance (like war, for example), there cannot be general absolution and penitents must confess their sins directly to the priest, in private.

How are faith and morals taught in your faith tradition?

As for the communit(ies) who do not generally have private confessions, yes I know them personally.

"Faith and morals?’ That is a Catholic phrase. You are seeing and making judgements (good or bad) through that lens.

Go ask the Quakers how they teach ‘faith and morals’. They would probably be a bit confused. Faith is important, but practice is twinned with that. When the Holy Spirit guides an individual, one acts. Friends have a long history of pacifism, and of, as you know, being a part of things like the Underground Railway. They respond, beyond anyone, to the callings of the Spirit.

As for my own tradition, I cannot speak for the whole Anglican Communion. I see TEC in the US embracing God through Christ, and an open table. Christ is among us as the Body and no one is excluded in that love. Love God and love your neighbor.

Perhaps this question is more of a Hillel / Shammai model. Hillel was asked to summarize his faith while standing on one foot. ‘That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary.’

Shammai, on the other hand, was a strict constructionist, and probably was very particular about ‘faith and morals’ being exactly to the letter of the law. The two were very different in how they lived their traditions, yet each was good and holy.

If I were to turn the question around to you in my language, I would ask, ‘How does your Church care for it’s own? Is everyone welcome to God’s table? Are you representing Christ on earth by feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and showing mercy to those who suffer? Are you living your life as Christ calls you - by name - in prayer and love and mercy?’

Aren’t these the words I hear over and over from your Pope?

 

[clem456]

As for the communit(ies) who do not generally have private confessions, yes I know them personally.

"Faith and morals?’ That is a Catholic phrase.

Nope. Not a Catholic phrase.
Faith is a theological gift.
Faith, Hope, Love.
Source of which is God. Expressed by the Church.

One faith. Two faiths are not possible. There is only one Christ.
Not all individuals, and not all communities are perfected in faith to the same degree.
So I cannot claim to possess perfect faith. I cannot claim that your faith is deficient personally. What do I know?

But faith is not a “Catholic phrase”.
It’s an adherence to the person of Christ, a response to that which is revealed in and through him.

You talk a lot about the Catholic Church’s deficiencies. What does the Episcopalian Church stand for in faith and morals?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

As for the communit(ies) who do not generally have private confessions, yes I know them personally.

"Faith and morals?’ That is a Catholic phrase. You are seeing and making judgements (good or bad) through that lens.

Go ask the Quakers how they teach ‘faith and morals’. They would probably be a bit confused. Faith is important, but practice is twinned with that. When the Holy Spirit guides an individual, one acts. Friends have a long history of pacifism, and of, as you know, being a part of things like the Underground Railway. They respond, beyond anyone, to the callings of the Spirit.

As for my own tradition, I cannot speak for the whole Anglican Communion. I see TEC in the US embracing God through Christ, and an open table. Christ is among us as the Body and no one is excluded in that love. Love God and love your neighbor.

Perhaps this question is more of a Hillel / Shammai model. Hillel was asked to summarize his faith while standing on one foot. ‘That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary.’

Shammai, on the other hand, was a strict constructionist, and probably was very particular about ‘faith and morals’ being exactly to the letter of the law. The two were very different in how they lived their traditions, yet each was good and holy.

If I were to turn the question around to you in my language, I would ask, ‘How does your Church care for it’s own? Is everyone welcome to God’s table? Are you representing Christ on earth by feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and showing mercy to those who suffer? Are you living your life as Christ calls you - by name - in prayer and love and mercy?’

Aren’t these the words I hear over and over from your Pope?

Only Catholics may receive Holy Communion at Mass.

My parish donates to the poor on a regular basis, especially to St. Vincent de Paul Society.

I have donated money to the poor, and I have donated clothing to St. Vincent de Paul. Also, I have donated to Catholic Relief Services. www.crs.org I try to be as loving and merciful as possible. I try to pray at least twice a day, if not more.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Nope. Not a Catholic phrase.
Faith is a theological gift.
Faith, Hope, Love.
Source of which is God. Expressed by the Church.

But faith is not a “Catholic phrase”.
It’s an adherence to the person of Christ, a response to that which is revealed in and through him.

Of course faith is not a Catholic phrase. It is across all traditions and all beliefs. Faith is as strong to a good Muslim or a good Hindu as it is to a good Catholic. I didn’t mean that at all.

Your putting together a phrase ‘faith-and-morals’ (one word almost) is what I am referring to. THAT, I believe is concept that is unique to Roman Catholicism.

 

[clem456]

Of course faith is not a Catholic phrase. It is across all traditions and all beliefs. Faith is as strong to a good Muslim or a good Hindu as it is to a good Catholic. I didn’t mean that at all.

Your putting together a phrase ‘faith-and-morals’ (one word almost) is what I am referring to. THAT, I believe is concept that is unique to Roman Catholicism.

Faith and morals are concepts?
They are unique to Catholicism?

Honestly I just don’t know how to respond. It seems a preposterous assertion.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Of course faith is not a Catholic phrase. It is across all traditions and all beliefs. Faith is as strong to a good Muslim or a good Hindu as it is to a good Catholic. I didn’t mean that at all.

Your putting together a phrase ‘faith-and-morals’ (one word almost) is what I am referring to. THAT, I believe is concept that is unique to Roman Catholicism.

That concept is unique to the RCC? So, how are morals taught and/or lived in your faith tradition?

 

[clem456]

That concept is unique to the RCC? So, how are morals taught and/or lived in your faith tradition?

That proves to be a real difficult thing to discuss.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

That concept is unique to the RCC?

I think I am not expressing myself well here. I’m sorry.

‘Faith-and-morals’ as a prominent category of teaching is something that is referred to, almost as one word, consistently in the RCC. Other traditions talk of faith all the time, as I said earlier. Morals? Not in the same way, if much at all. And together, as a holistic way of teaching the religious beliefs? One just doesn’t hear it. Perhaps the Mormons do, but they would call it something different.

I would say that for you Roman Catholics, it’s yours. Own it. But if you ask non-Catholics what their teachings are on faith-and-morals, you might get some hesitation or odd looks. There isn’t, for the most part, an answer.

Google it. It’s all Catholic citations, with the exception of two Islamic links.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I think I am not expressing myself well here. I’m sorry.

‘Faith-and-morals’ as a prominent category of teaching is something that is referred to, almost as one word, consistently in the RCC. Other traditions talk of faith all the time, as I said earlier. Morals? Not in the same way, if much at all. And together, as a holistic way of teaching the religious beliefs? One just doesn’t hear it. Perhaps the Mormons do, but they would call it something different.

I would say that for you Roman Catholics, it’s yours. Own it. But if you ask non-Catholics what their teachings are on faith-and-morals, you might get some hesitation or odd looks. There isn’t, for the most part, an answer.

Google it. It’s all Catholic citations, with the exception of two Islamic links.

Are you saying that your faith tradition doesn’t teach morals?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Are you saying that your faith tradition doesn’t teach morals?

TEC seminaries certainly teach moral or ethical theology, usually within a broader systematic theology. I haven’t seen a syllabus in awhile, but probably using the works of Richard Hooker and Jeremy Taylor.

OR there may be situational ethics taught in pastoral care courses.