Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

[aidanbradypop]

Because Anglicanism does not have an official view about these doctrines, it can be difficult to say with precision what Anglicans believe. For many, it is left up to the individual on the belief or not. Many Episcopalians(High Church) believe in such (example: Our Lady of Walsingham) while many evangelical or low church Anglicans/Episcopalians do not. Maybe in fear of being “too Catholic” lol.

I take no issue with Our Lady of Guadalupe or any Marian sighting. If it strenghtens the faithful then it is a good thing. The Blessed Mother’s purpose is to bring us closer to her Son!

 

[Kliska]

I would agree with those saying this probably isn’t the ideal way to evangelize protestants. Starting with these apparitions would be kind of backward, as I would think believing the RCC and magisterium are the earthly authority to turn to in matters of faith would be the primary thing to convince us of prior to going to the apparitions.

As others have said, many protestants would see these apparitions as “neutral” or “negative.”

 

[aidanbradypop]

As others have said, many protestants would see these apparitions as “neutral” or “negative.”

Many low church Episcopalians kind of view them as “taking away from the ministry of Christ” is how it was once explained to me.

Personally, I can take or leave them.

 

[Adamski]

I looked into it and there and cannot find any evidence that nothing more than just a painting.

How do explain the fabric had lasted 500 years when a reproduction in the same environment lasted less than 20?

 

[SteveVH]

How do explain the fabric had lasted 500 years when a reproduction in the same environment lasted less than 20?

Or the reflection, in the eyes of the image, of those who were present when Juan Diego presented the flowers in his tilma to the bishop which was only discovered with modern technology and can’t be perceived with the naked eye.

 

[pablope]

Aside from thanking God for giving us Mary, and if I believed possible, thanking Mary myself what more should I do?

I thank God for every good creation, whether human or object. I don’t understand why Catholics disapprove of how we treat Mary. The belief that she does not receive all of our petitions is only based on our belief that she’s not omnipotent; but that doesn’t mean we can’t thank God for her. Also, we thank God for Peter, for Paul, for our Pastors and for the people doing missions trips. I don’t think any of those people seek praise because doing so would be unbiblical anyway. Can someone please clear up for me what more we can do for a created being?

chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mary.pdf

Look for the article: What is devotion to Mary?

 

[jadamo]

I looked into it and there and cannot find any evidence that nothing more than just a painting.

Then you didn’t look very hard. Read the full story and all the different scientific studies that have been performed on the tilma and you’ll see it’s not a painting.

 

[JonNC]

Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.

1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
2. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
3. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?

4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc

I’ll let you argue with the Catholics here on 1 - 3, but the 4th I take umbrage with. Even the suggestion that they are “stage-managed” seems to call into question the honesty of the Catholic Church in the broader sense. I really take no stand on the apparitions themselves, but I certainly wouldn’t question that they consider them to be the Blessed Virgin.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

I’ll let you argue with the Catholics here on 1 - 3, but the 4th I take umbrage with. Even the suggestion that they are “stage-managed” seems to call into question the honesty of the Catholic Church in the broader sense. I really take no stand on the apparitions themselves, but I certainly wouldn’t question that they consider them to be the Blessed Virgin.

Jon

Thanks, Jon.

 

[MJCamp]

4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc

The Lord seems to be working in mysterious ways these days. This is a purported incident in the same India you mention

blog.theotokos.co.za/?p=2859

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, Jon.

You’re welcome, but ISTM that the first, tiny, baby step toward unity is an expressed trust in the integrity and honesty of the other, even when we disagree. When a Catholic tells me, Adamski does in the OP, that this apparition is the Blessed Virgin Mary, I know he truly, honestly believes it, and where they are approved by the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church believes it honestly as well. I may or may not share that belief, but I respect it, and those who believe it, and I don’t think they consider her divine.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

You’re welcome, but ISTM that the first, tiny, baby step toward unity is an expressed trust in the integrity and honesty of the other, even when we disagree. When a Catholic tells me, Adamski does in the OP, that this apparition is the Blessed Virgin Mary, I know he truly, honestly believes it, and where they are approved by the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church believes it honestly as well. I may or may not share that belief, but I respect it, and those who believe it, and I don’t think they consider her divine.

Jon

Thanks, once again.

This thread is of interest to me because I have wondered, as has Adamski, what non-Catholics think of Marian events such as Fatima or Guadalupe. I certainly did not just accept these because the Church approved them (although that didn’t hurt). It is the evidence that is so convincing to me. I am interested in what non-Catholics think based upon empirical evidence alone, forget what the Church says, for the time being. I think that is where Adamski is coming from as well.

Peace.

Steve

 

[EIF5A]

I think some people question why God would need/want “help” from a created being to get His message across to humans.

The Church is a body of believers, and even if one does not accept Mary as the mother of all believers, she is at least a very blessed person with a very unique role in salvation and connection with Jesus.

Why is it so surprising that she gives warning to humanity? It’s always about praying, repentance, etc.

I think some Protestants would have less of an issue if an archangel gave messages instead.

 

[concretecamper]

Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

from hanging around this forum I have come to the conclusion that most protestants do not dislike Mary. They just focus exclusively on Jesus, and in effect, neglect the rest of God’s family in heaven.

Maybe the focus should be to explain what protestants are missing. There is never a time when I pray to Mary that I don’t contemplate Jesus as well. The 2 are inseparable. And the maternal feeling you get with Mary…is second to none.

And if the touchy feely stuff doesn’t work, how about the Queen Mothers role in the OT.

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[concretecamper]

Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

from hanging around this forum I have come to the conclusion that most protestants do not dislike Mary. They just focus exclusively on Jesus, and in effect, neglect the rest of God’s family in heaven.

Maybe the focus should be to explain what protestants are missing. There is never a time when I pray to Mary that I don’t contemplate Jesus as well. The 2 are inseparable. And the maternal feeling you get with Mary…is second to none.

And if the touchy feely stuff doesn’t work, how about the Queen Mothers role in the OT.

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[concretecamper]

Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

There is never a time when I pray to Mary that I don’t also meditate on Jesus. The 2 are inseparable!

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[Kliska]

For some of us protestants, a lot of the skepticism is based on the teaching that many hold to; that there is separation between those who have died physically and those who live. Meaning, there is no overlap even for the dead in Christ and those in Heaven with the “land of the living.” For those of us that believe this, there are no visions of any human who has gone on to be with the Lord that we would accept as being legit.

Dreams and visions of God or His angels are a different belief. Some protestants would accept that could happen, some would not.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

One might be surprised by the response to Mary from some Christians. I read the book, American Magnificat [Maxwell Johnson] and learned that Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians may have images of Our Lady of Guadalupe in their churches; even celebrating the feast day [Dec 12].

Lutherans, particularly in Europe, have shrines devoted to the Blessed Virgin even in churches constructed after the Reformation. The apparitions of the Mother of God seem to occur among the young and lowly.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mary always points us to her Son and it is through the power of her Son that she appears to us. Christ is using Mary, his mother, to call us to penance, conversion, fasting and prayer. This message is repeated over and over. There is no inconsistency with her message and that of her Son. She points us to her Son, telling us to “Follow Him” and to “Listen to Him”. Quite biblical and rooted in the Tradition of the Church.

And there is a Church approved Marian apparition in Africa, Kibeho. Quite remarkable. Suggest that you read about it from a Catholic source.

PnP

 

[Adamski]

One might be surprised by the response to Mary from some Christians. I read the book, American Magnificat [Maxwell Johnson] and learned that Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians may have images of Our Lady of Guadalupe in their churches; even celebrating the feast day [Dec 12].

Lutherans, particularly in Europe, have shrines devoted to the Blessed Virgin even in churches constructed after the Reformation. The apparitions of the Mother of God seem to occur among the young and lowly.

I was at the home of an Anglican pastor and they had a shrine to our lady