Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

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Adamski said:
A major part of me solidifying that I needed to come back to the church was the study of the tilma of Juan Diego. For one the same fabric only last 20 years of so and the tilma had lasted over 500 years. This is just the tip of the iceberg there are so many elements that can not be explained using science. How can anyone not be catholic once they look into all the details of our lady of Guadalupe ?
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I simply don’t find it that compelling.

The Shroud of Turin is much more compelling IMO.
 
Kliska said:
I would agree with those saying this probably isn’t the ideal way to evangelize protestants. 😉
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Perhaps. Though I wouldn’t say evangelize the Protestants, but I know that Protestants understand when someone says that something makes them closer to Christ. I am a Catholic and for a while was very deep into ‘charismatic spirituality’ because that was how I became close to Christ. It was a born-again experience, if you will; we call it a renewal in our faith.

I am not very Marian in spirituality though I pray the Rosary especially in group but I know there are Catholics who were changed and became very devoted to Christ through Marian devotion. A neutral observer may want to investigate why certain people can become devoted Christians through Mary.

Similarly, some Christians get close to Christ through being deep in the word, some through the Sacraments like the Eucharist and some through devotion to Mary. Perhaps the proverbial good tree produces good fruit … . Anyway to merely brush them off would probably be unreasonable. We can disagree but certainly we cannot deny the positive that these devotions do the people individually.

Some Protestants may disagree with Catholicism but they are not that prejudiced not to acknowledge the mystical phenomenon that happens worldwide among fellows Christians and may want to know why, especially if they make life-changing experience.
 
What bothers me about describing Mary as a vessel is it almost seems like they make her sound like Perseus’s mother in Greek mythology.
 
Where is Perseus’s mother in the bible?

Ark of the Covenant = vessel
 
To the first reply; I certainly do love Mary as I love others. No worries there, I do my best to love all as God commands.
pablope said:
chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mary.pdf

Look for the article: What is devotion to Mary?
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I read it but I still don’t understand how it answers my question. I agree that we are right to thank God for those who have been sent our way to help lead us to Him. I also think it right to thank the people themselves and the people will normally want one to thank God instead if they’re perfect.

That being said, if I believed possible I would thank Mary for all of her work, and thank God most of all because it was all His doing. Any Catholic I believe does the same, so what’s the issue then?
 
I think, at least IMHO, Marian devotion seems to be more than giving thanks and veneration for her one-of-a-kind role in salvation. God didn’t need her per se, but He chose her…so that’s that.

She wants souls to be saved and wants to lead them to her Son, the only way to salvation. From what she receives from Jesus according to Divine will, she seeks to help people.

Imagine you’re in a foreign country, and none of the signs at the train station is in English. There are recognizable arrows and numbers, and with enough determination, and perhaps after a few mistakes getting on and off different trains, one can get on the right train to get to the final destination. It would be nice if someone were there to help you.

I think reverent Marian devotion also promises to obtain graces to aid the soul in living a righteous life and mediation at the time of our death.

Hopefully I haven’t written something incorrect…
 
House_Harkonnen said:
I simply don’t find it that compelling.

The Shroud of Turin is much more compelling IMO.
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Speaking of the Shroud of Turin, the attached video features Barrie Schwortz, an Orthodox Jew who was a member of a team that investigated the Shroud many years ago. I had not heard his testimony before and it’s pretty amazing, especially given his religious background.

Video link is here.

He also started this website, a collection point for all information on the Shroud that his available. One commonality between the Shroud and the Tilma is that science can not explain how the image(s) have occurred. Neither were painted on as evident by among other things, no brush strokes when closely examined (all paintings have brush strokes)

PnP
 
SteveVH said:
Thanks, once again.

This thread is of interest to me because I have wondered, as has Adamski, what non-Catholics think of Marian events such as Fatima or Guadalupe. I certainly did not just accept these because the Church approved them (although that didn’t hurt). It is the evidence that is so convincing to me. I am interested in what non-Catholics think based upon empirical evidence alone, forget what the Church says, for the time being. I think that is where Adamski is coming from as well.

Peace.

Steve
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Hi Steve,
I hadn’t planned on posting this thread until I read that other posters comments, largely because I kind of agree with what House Harkonnen said. I don’t think it unusual for Lutherans, at least confessional Lutherans, to find this not particularly compelling. That’s not to say we dismiss it out of hand, just that it isn’t part of our religious culture. If Catholics are led to a strengthening in faith by this, it is fine by me.

Jon
 
dronald said:
Aside from thanking God for giving us Mary, and if I believed possible, thanking Mary myself what more should I do?

I thank God for every good creation, whether human or object. **I don’t understand why Catholics disapprove of how we treat Mary. **
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We only disapprove of the attitude that *some *protestants have toward Mary. When it comes to e.g. Anglicans and Lutherans (who are both catholic *and *protestant), I don’t see a problem with their attitude toward Mary.
 
Cat said:
My husband and I are converts to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism.

There are lots of ways to witness to Protestants about Christ and Catholicism.

**I would say that using the Marian Apparitions is probably not the best approach to use with most Evangelical Protestants.
**
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Generally I’d agree, but I’d make an exception for Our Lady of Guadalupe. (Though of course even there we must be careful.)
 
Kamaz said:
If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
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Those examples sound a lot like what *did *happen.
 
Peter_J said:
We only disapprove of the attitude that *some *protestants have toward Mary. When it comes to e.g. Anglicans and Lutherans (who are both catholic *and *protestant), I don’t see a problem with their attitude toward Mary.
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Again, what attitude? No one dislikes Mary for obvious reasons.
 
The historicity of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe may be viewed with some suspicion among Lutherans but the symbol of Mary as a dark face mestizo servant of God is very powerful. I like Martin Luther’s “passive” view of the blessed Virgin and the notion of Mary being the symbol of Israel.
“The basis for this reflection is found in the application of the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in which Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Assumption can be seen as an example of God’s grace freely given and Mary seen as the “passive recipient” of divine action” (p. 153)
latinotheology.org/node/70
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The photo is of a Lutheran parish in Texas where they include the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the processional cross.
brandonwade.com/blog/tag/lutheran-church
 
JonNC said:
Hi Steve,
I hadn’t planned on posting this thread until I read that other posters comments, largely because I kind of agree with what House Harkonnen said. I don’t think it unusual for Lutherans, at least confessional Lutherans, to find this not particularly compelling. That’s not to say we dismiss it out of hand, just that it isn’t part of our religious culture. If Catholics are led to a strengthening in faith by this, it is fine by me.

Jon
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Jon,

You likely know this but for the benefit of others, the Catholic Church says that the Church approved Marian apparitions are “worthy of belief”. As private revelation, they are not doctrines that Catholics must adhere to. As a Catholic, they do strengthen my faith but at the same time, my faith is not dependent on my believing in them.

God gives us all kinds of extraordinary signs that draw us to him in faith: Marian apparitions, the Shroud of Turin, Incorruptible Saints and Extraordinary Miracles of the Eucharist being examples.

PnP
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I like Martin Luther’s “passive” view of the blessed Virgin and the notion of Mary being the symbol of Israel.
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I am somewhat troubled by the notion of Mary being entirely passive - I get the fact that she herself had no cause in the conception of Christ, but in Luke’s account of the annunciation Mary (at the least) consents - “Behold I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

I am reminded of Esther, when Mordecai said to her “14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place,”

Could Mary have refused?

I don’t mean to derail the thread chasing the idea of “passive or not” but to me, Marian appearances are anything but passive.
 
Stilldreamn said:
Could Mary have refused?
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Yes. Of course that’s my humble opinion in understanding the biblical view of faith, and holding certain models up in terms of faith. As she did the will of The Father, so too can we. I see free will being an intrinsic part of that; I believe she had a real choice… of course God knew she’d say yes, but that doesn’t diminish her choice.
 
dronald said:
Aside from thanking God for giving us Mary, and if I believed possible, thanking Mary myself what more should I do?

I thank God for every good creation, whether human or object.** I don’t understand why Catholics disapprove of how we treat Mary. **The belief that she does not receive all of our petitions is only based on our belief that she’s not omnipotent; but that doesn’t mean we can’t thank God for her. Also, we thank God for Peter, for Paul, for our Pastors and for the people doing missions trips. I don’t think any of those people seek praise because doing so would be unbiblical anyway. Can someone please clear up for me what more we can do for a created being?
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First of all, the CC has never taught Mary is omnipotent…error 1.
 
Nicea325 said:
First of all, the CC has never taught Mary is omnipotent…error 1.
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Being a Protestant on this forum is hard…

Not everything Protestants believe has to do with Catholics. I never said Catholics believe that, and if you’re going to be arrogant about it make sure that your reading comprehension isn’t lacking.
 
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