Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

[PRmerger]

However, we are limited in scope, understanding, knowledge, and limited to using various tools.

So we are agreed that your communicating with me, even though I am nowhere near you, is not through any kind of divine power either of us have.

It would then not be a stretch to understand that those in heaven can hear us, without it affording some sort of divinity to the saints.

I don’t pray to you to ask you to pray to me

That’s really simply a question of semantics. What you are doing to me is nothing more and nothing less than what we Catholics do with those in heaven.

That you have excluded “praying” to mean “asking” is an arbitrary exclusion.

Catholics use “pray” to mean “ask”, and it’s something that has been part of the English lexicon for quite some time.

I believe my pipeline to my fellow saints in Heaven is God Himself. For example, if I miss my Grandma, I don’t pray to her, I pray to God and ask, very politely, that if it is in His will to let my Grandma know I miss her. I wouldn’t presume she is watching and listening to me every second of every day and anyone else who may be speaking to her,

But that is not found in the Bible. It is simply a man-made tradition you’ve heard. You heard your pastor say, “Those in heaven can’t watch you and listen to you” but you’ve never read that in a single page of the Bible.

but I know for a 100% fact that God is and I’m commanded to speak to Him only via prayer

You are commanded to speak to Him only via prayer? Where is that command, emphasis on the “only”?

(And please note, that speaking to saints in heaven via prayer is not the same as worshiping them.)

If I’d like angelic protection, I ask God, not say, Michael, directly.

Bible verse for this, please.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus is God. Even in the incarnation He has knowledge and abilities we don’t possess.

The reference isn’t so much about Jesus, but rather speaks to the fact that Moses and Elijah are alive and rather aware of the goings-on here on earth.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 9:31[/BIBLEDRB]

They appear to be quite cognizant.

It doesn’t say who or what collects them, however.

Not sure what this means.

Are not the saints in heaven offering our prayers?

Prayer, Spiritual communication, is something I reserve to direct at God alone for all that He has done, and to honor the Trinity and the Sacrifice of the Son.

Again, this is something you’ve believed because you heard a man tell you this, but you never read that in a single page of the Bible.

He tells us to pray to those believers that are dead in Christ? I’d also be interested in seeing where he, or any other Apostle, prayed to someone already with the Lord.

First you’ll have to show where those who are alive in Christ are separated from the Body of Christ. Book, chapter and verse, please.

Rather, the contrary is the Catholic view: those who are alive in Christ are even more intimately joined to His Body than any righteous man here on earth.

You, dear Kliska, appear to have fallen deeply for some man-made traditions that are found nowhere in the pages of Genesis through Revelation.

 

[Kliska]

But the point is that we can’t know from outward appearance whether any person is worshipping a Bible or a statue, vs showing reverence. In order for us to know whether a Bible or a statue is being worshipped, the alleged worshipper must tell us what her intentions are.

In order for us to know, well, in a sense. People can lie, and they can also rationalize. Only God knows their intent, outside of themselves… and in the case of rationalization they actually believe an untruth themselves, so for some “God only knows.”

So you are not against intercessory prayer.

Of course not.

Your only objection is that those in heaven cannot hear us–am I correctly identifying your objection?

Ummm… no. As I said, it is entirely possible that they could hear us. My objection is that we are commanded to pray to the Father. We are also commanded to refrain from interacting with the spiritual realm, in the sense of communicating with those no longer here on earth. The Saints, while alive in the Heavenly sense, are not in possession of bodies such as ours, nor are thy in possession of the attributes of God.

Can you identify what Bible verse says that those in heaven are to be excluded from intercessory prayer?

I think that would take us down the wrong path. I’ve asked before; where does scripture state that we are commanded to pray to the dead in Christ, or even that we can? Where is there, in scripture, an example of an Apostle praying to the dead in Christ?

And this is where it always boils down to; tradition. I understand that, I just don’t agree with it.

Of course, seeking recourse from the dead for information is necromancy, which the CC condemns.

This is a bit of a limited definition of necromancy.

So what I am asking is where the Bible says that asking those in heaven for intercession is different from asking those on earth.

Because you are jumping to a conclusion that doesn’t have enough premises to back it up; those on earth are categorically different than those in Heaven. They are in a spiritual state, we are not. The have indeed physically died, we have not. We have no biblical evidence that we are commanded to talk to them directly.

I am sure you believe that.

I don’t believe it, I know it.

It would then not be a stretch to understand that those in heaven can hear us, without it affording some sort of divinity to the saints.

This gets us into a discussion of time Heaven, knowledge capacity, etc… etc… that we simply do not have enough (name removed by moderator)ut on. It is sufficient for me to know that I’m to pray to the Father, and I’m not to try to communicate with the physically dead.

That’s really simply a question of semantics. What you are doing to me is nothing more and nothing less than what we Catholics do with those in heaven.

Quite the contrary, even by sheer definition and state of being, it is different.

Catholics use “pray” to mean “ask”, and it’s something that has been part of the English lexicon for quite some time.

We don’t disagree on that.

But that is not found in the Bible. It is simply a man-made tradition you’ve heard. You heard your pastor say, “Those in heaven can’t watch you and listen to you” but you’ve never read that in a single page of the Bible.

I’ve never claimed that they can’t watch or listen to you and have never heard a preacher say that.What I have said is that they don’t have all the attributes of God. Let me flip the question; is it wrong for me to ask God to interact with my Grandmother? Is it wrong the I elevate my relationship with God and my respect for what Jesus won for me with His sacrifice that I limit my praying directed to the spiritual realm to God alone?

You are commanded to speak to Him only

via prayer? Where is that command, emphasis on the “only”?

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The Our Father shows us the manner in which to pray. I don’t see the Apostles, or Jesus, directing their prayer to anyone else but God.

(And please note, that speaking to saints in heaven via prayer is not the same as worshiping them.)

I believe that is the RCC’s official teaching, yes. I’ve never said otherwise.

Bible verse for this, please.

Again, when I pray I pray to God directly not to the angels themselves. I’m sharing my practice.

The reference isn’t so much about Jesus, but rather speaks to the fact that Moses and Elijah are alive and rather aware of the goings-on here on earth.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 9:31[/BIBLEDRB]

They appear to be quite cognizant.

I never said otherwise. Somewhere people have mistaken me; I believe they can watch the goings on, but simply not in the same manner with the same abilities as God.

Not sure what this means.

Are not the saints in heaven offering our prayers?

Two separate points; yes, 1) they offer their own prayers, and 2) the vials contain the prayers of the saints. In regard to the vials, we don’t know who did the collecting.

First you’ll have to show where those who are alive in Christ are separated from the Body of Christ. Book, chapter and verse, please.

I’ve never said they were.

You, dear Kliska, appear to have fallen deeply for some man-made traditions that are found nowhere in the pages of Genesis through Revelation.

Of course I see it the opposite way. That’s one reason I’m a protestant, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

In order for us to know, well, in a sense. People can lie, and they can also rationalize. Only God knows their intent, outside of themselves… and in the case of rationalization they actually believe an untruth themselves, so for some “God only knows.”

I happen to disagree with you.

One simply cannot be worshipping–anything–unless one intends to worship it. Even if one is a cliched “worshipper of money”–one cannot be a participant in this unless one intends to put greater value on this than anything else.

Of course not.

Excellent.

So it seems that the objection is merely one of semantics. You object to the use of the word “pray” when it is attached to saints. In your estimation when we ask saints to pray for us, as intercessory agents, it ought not be called “prayer”.

Except that I already showed you that you have made an arbitrary exclusion. There is no reason that prayer has to exclude “asking”. There is a long tradition of use of the word to mean “petition”.

 

[Kliska]

I happen to disagree with you.

One simply cannot be worshipping–anything–unless one intends to worship it. Even if one is a cliched “worshipper of money”–one cannot be a participant in this unless one intends to put greater value on this than anything else.

Do you think that all those that worship money would say that they do?

Excellent.

So it seems that the objection is merely one of semantics. You object to the use of the word “pray” when it is attached to saints. In your estimation when we ask saints to pray for us, as intercessory agents, it ought not be called “prayer”.

Except that I already showed you that you have made an arbitrary exclusion. There is no reason that prayer has to exclude “asking”. There is a long tradition of use of the word to mean “petition”.

Quite the contrary, I’ve shown specific scripture that tells us Who to direct our prayers to in the Heavenlies; the Father, and conversely there is the point to not pray to those who have passed over. Again, do you object to me exclusively praying to Our Father?

 

[PRmerger]

My objection is that we are commanded to pray to the Father.

Amen!

But no verse in Scripture says we must pray ONLY to the Father. That is where you have added to Scripture and succumbed to a tradition of men.

We are to WORSHIP ONLY God, and God Alone, but not pray only to God.

We are also commanded to refrain from interacting with the spiritual realm, in the sense of communicating with those no longer here on earth.

We are forbidden to engage in necromancy. But not to ask those in heaven to pray for us.

The Saints, while alive in the Heavenly sense, are not in possession of bodies such as ours, nor are thy in possession of the attributes of God.

I thought it was already established that knowing what goes on somewhere even if you’re not there physically is not an attribute of God. Else that would make you divine for knowing what I am thinking (as far as my thoughts go regarding intercessory prayer).

 

[PRmerger]

I think that would take us down the wrong path. I’ve asked before; where does scripture state that we are commanded to pray to the dead in Christ, or even that we can? Where is there, in scripture, an example of an Apostle praying to the dead in Christ?

Are you of the position, then, that if it’s not found in Scripture then it is forbidden?

This is an important question, dear Kliska. For I think my Protestant brethren have not yet figured out what their paradigm is as it applies to things that Scripture is silent about.

For on the one hand, you do seem to object to things, such as prayer to the saints, because “it’s not found in Scripture”…

yet…

also appeal to “it’s not forbidden in Scripture” (therefore, I am permitted) when Scripture is silent.

One ought to pick one paradigm and apply it consistently to practices never addressed in Scripture (and there are a myriad of them, right? Scripture is hardly a compendium of all things we will encounter in our lives as Christians.)

A. Where Scripture is silent, we are forbidden to engage in it.
B. Where Scripture is silent, we are permitted to engage in it.

What’s your poison?

 

[PRmerger]

It is sufficient for me to know that I’m to pray to the Father,

Yes.

and I’m not to try to communicate with the physically dead.

Man-made tradition.

There is nothing in Scripture which says you cannot pray to those in heaven who are alive in Christ.

I’ve never claimed that they can’t watch or listen to you and have never heard a preacher say that.What I have said is that they don’t have all the attributes of God

No one is claiming they have all the attributes of God by being able to hear our prayers and intercede for us.

Let me flip the question; is it wrong for me to ask God to interact with my Grandmother?

Not at all.

Is it wrong the I elevate my relationship with God and my respect for what Jesus won for me with His sacrifice that I limit my praying directed to the spiritual realm to God alone?

It is not wrong. But you are missing out on the prayers of a multitude of righteous men who are there waiting to pray for you and your special intentions.

I suppose that a similar question could be posed to you by another Christian. How would you respond to this: “Is it wrong that I demonstrate my respect for Jesus alone by limiting my Bible reading to the words of Christ only?”

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The Our Father shows us the manner in which to pray.

Amen!

However, if you are using this to demonstrate this is the only way in which we are to pray, then it proves too much, right? Do you ONLY pray in your closet to God the Father?

Again, when I pray I pray to God directly not to the angels themselves. I’m sharing my practice.

But if you can’t offer a Bible verse, it’s a practice that’s not found in the Bible. I thought you were against that?

I believe they can watch the goings on, but simply not in the same manner with the same abilities as God.

Excellent. This is very Catholic.

Two separate points; yes, 1) they offer their own prayers

Why, then, doesn’t it say that they are offering their *own *prayers?

and 2) the vials contain the prayers of the saints. In regard to the vials, we don’t know who did the collecting.

Ok. I don’t really care *who *did the collecting. The point is that the saints in heaven know what they are and are offering them before the Throne.

I’ve never said they were.

Excellent. So you believe that the saints in heaven are part of the Body of Christ. And we, the church, are part of the Body of Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

Do you think that all those that worship money would say that they do?

Fair enough.

So you think that someone could be worshipping another deity without knowing she was.

I don’t think that’s possible, but I will concede that someone could be “worshipping” money without knowing she is doing this. However, I think “worship” in the latter case is not an actual worship, but rather a way of ascribing behavior that puts something else above God. Not actual worship.

Quite the contrary, I’ve shown specific scripture that tells us Who to direct our prayers to in the Heavenlies;

Not really. I didn’t see the word “ONLY” in that verse. Again, one could conclude that you believe God wants us to pray ONLY in the closet as well.

the Father, and conversely there is the point to not pray to those who have passed over. Again, do you object to me exclusively praying to Our Father?

No more than you ought to object to someone saying she was going to exclusively read only the words of Jesus from the Bible.

 

[Porknpie]

ISo is your objection not that we don’t go straight to Jesus, but that you don’t believe those in heaven can hear us?

PR, sounds like Kliska is saying this is true and that is it “OK” to have others pray for us, rather than go directly to Jesus.

Please say a prayer for me, that God may heal my injured shoulder. The prayer of a righteous man avails much.

(Or do I take that to mean, only of a righteous man, not of a righteous woman?)

 

[MJCamp]

He tells us to pray to those believers that are dead in Christ? I’d also be interested in seeing where he, or any other Apostle, prayed to someone already with the Lord.

As a member of the Body of Christ. We are taught that all are alive in Christ. Heaven, Purgatory, and here on Earth. We are taught to join in prayer for each other. As Jesus states in Matthew, he is the God of not the dead, but the living.

Matthew 22: 30-32
30 For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like theangelsin heaven.31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you never read whatGodhimself said to you:32I am theGodof Abraham, theGodofIsaacand theGodof Jacob? He is God, not of the dead, but of the living.’"

 

[MJCamp]

He tells us to pray to those believers that are dead in Christ? I’d also be interested in seeing where he, or any other Apostle, prayed to someone already with the Lord.

As a member of the Body of Christ. We are taught that all are alive in Christ. Heaven, Purgatory, and here on Earth. We are taught to join in prayer for each other. As Jesus states in Matthew, he is the God of not the dead, but the living.

Matthew 22: 30-32
30 For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like theangelsin heaven.31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you never read whatGodhimself said to you:32I am theGodof Abraham, theGodofIsaacand theGodof Jacob? He is God, not of the dead, but of the living.’"

 

[PRmerger]

PR, sounds like Kliska is saying this is true and that is it “OK” to have others pray for us, rather than go directly to Jesus.

:yup:

Please say a prayer for me, that God may heal my injured shoulder.

Prayers going up right now!

The prayer of a righteous man avails much.

(Or do I take that to mean, only of a righteous man, not of a righteous woman?)

 

[Kliska]

Are you of the position, then, that if it’s not found in Scripture then it is forbidden?

Actually no. For example, we are to have charity when one is “weak in faith” as Paul puts it, in his example of not eating meat. It’s not forbidden to be a vegan.

For on the one hand, you do seem to object to things, such as prayer to the saints, because “it’s not found in Scripture”…

Again, quite the contrary; we object because we see that forbidden.

There is nothing in Scripture which says you cannot pray to those in heaven who are alive in Christ.

Not cannot, should not. This is the direction I don’t want to go in because it will become argumentative in a way I’m not willing to go on a RC messageboard. Please believe me when I say I don’t mean we will be unkind to one another, rather that goes into, what I feel, would be disrespectful territory, me being a guest on your turf with your rules.

It is not wrong. But you are missing out on the prayers of a multitude of righteous men who are there waiting to pray for you and your special intentions.

Maybe that’s another difference; if they are there and they care, and their prayers are efficacious I sure hope they aren’t waiting on me. In other words, they don’t need my go ahead to pray for me.

However, if you are using this to demonstrate this is the only way in which we are to pray, then it proves too much, right? Do you ONLY pray in your closet to God the Father?

I actually believe in private prayer. I don’t pray in public, unless you count Paul’s “pray without ceasing” style prayer, but we’d probably both agree that’s not out loud every second of the day.

You may be interested in this bit; I actually believe rote prayer in public is better and more suitable than extemporaneous prayer. If someone is going to pray in public I feel much more comfortable with them praying the Our Father than jumping into a more protestant ramble (there I said it, but couldn’t figure out how to say it charitably). I do offer thanks and blessings in public, but the beseeching is best left to behind closed doors.

Why, then, doesn’t it say that they are offering their *own *prayers?

You lost me on this one; I thought we both agreed that they beseech God for us?

Ok. I don’t really care *who *did the collecting. The point is that the saints in heaven know what they are and are offering them before the Throne.

lol For what it’s worth, yes, we agree on that.

Excellent. So you believe that the saints in heaven are part of the Body of Christ. And we, the church, are part of the Body of Christ?

Absolutely with Jesus, God the Son, as the head of the church, the head contains the brain and is the control center of the body. If the left hand needs itched it is the brain that tells the right hand to itch it. lol Though for both of us, I know we know that metaphors only go so far.

So you think that someone could be worshipping another deity without knowing she was.

Interesting possibility, would have to think about it. As you say, worshipping a thing accidentally may be easier.

Not really. I didn’t see the word “ONLY” in that verse. Again, one could conclude that you believe God wants us to pray ONLY in the closet as well.

It is an imperative style sentence though; when thou prayest… pray to the Father.

 

[PRmerger]

It is an imperative style sentence though; when thou prayest… pray to the Father.

Amen!

It is, however, adding to Scripture when you say this means: pray ONLY to the Father.

The word ONLY is not there. :nope:

 

[Kliska]

Amen!

It is, however, adding to Scripture when you say this means: pray ONLY to the Father.

The word ONLY is not there. :nope:

But that is implicit in the imperative. When you pray would be… literally “when you pray, pray to the Father.” So it tells you that when you go to pray, you should be directing prayer to Whom? The Father. I don’t see any scripture that teaches anything different either by word or by example?

 

[PRmerger]

But that is implicit in the imperative. When you pray would be… literally “when you pray, pray to the Father.” So it tells you that when you go to pray, you should be directing prayer to Whom? The Father.

Indeed.

But, again, there is no “ONLY” there. That has been added by you.

I don’t see any scripture that teaches anything different either by word or by example?

So, then, it appears that your paradigm is that if it Scripture is silent, it’s forbidden?

 

[PRmerger]

It is an imperative style sentence though; when thou prayest… pray to the Father.

Incidentally, do you not find this to be also an imperative:

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet,

So why do you not interpret this imperative (for that is, indeed, what it is–an imperative) to mean that we are being commanded to pray ONLY in our closets?

 

[PRmerger]

I actually believe in private prayer. I don’t pray in public, unless you count Paul’s “pray without ceasing” style prayer, but we’d probably both agree that’s not out loud every second of the day.

Really? You don’t belong to a church? Or if you do, you do not pray communally with the Body of Christ?