Do you see the inconsistent application of the imperative here?
You say, "It’s an imperative, therefore that means ‘only’ "
And yet, "It’s an imperative, but it doesn’t mean ‘only’ "
No, and I don’t mean this harshly, but you’re the one hung up on the word only. I read it in context as Jesus saying when you pray, pray to the Father, do so in secret, and ask in secret. As I’ve already said (and I think we have agreed) that there are different kinds of prayers and forms of prayers, etc… This is teaching on the beseeching form, going to ask something. So the parallel that I’m seeing in the discussion is that the RCC advocates praying, asking, a Saint in Heaven for something (intercession).
You’ve decided, along with RCC teaching, that that can include prayer, asking, to departed saints. I don’t agree.
I truly think that this has been a good conversation, but it’s kind of repeating itself. lol If I have failed in explaining my point clearly, please blame me and not my point. When I beseech, I beseech in private and direct the beseeching to the Father. I only represent my opinion, and I think I’ve done that as good as it’s gonna get.
I think he means many, many things–one being the existentially oriented prayer, one being one’s behavior, one being one’s thoughts, and one being, most sublimely, the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is, thanks to the evangelization of Catholic saints throughout history, occurring from the rising of the sun to its setting, from east to west, at every hour of the day on this planet. Amazing!!
Yes, amazing, but obviously we don’t agree that is what Paul is preaching. However, I do agree on the other; Paul is teaching an existential idea, that our whole lives amount to prayer when focused properly on Christ; behaviour, thoughts, etc… and it’s not about that beseeching, asking, prayer, ie he’s not telling us we must constantly be asking for something.
So even though Jesus did not literally say, “Baptism now saves you”, you can understand that when St. Peter says it, it is Jesus saying it.
Sure, but you and I differ on the interpretation of that. Some Muslims like to quote Jesus out of context and say He advocates bringing His enemies to Him to slay. Context and proper interpretation are paramount. And, of course, we will disagree on how to interpret.
You are, like the Jesus’ Words Only Advocate (JWOA), advocating prayer to God Alone.
We Catholics respond, like you do to the JWOA, that all those in heaven are actually part of the Body of Christ, in a most intimate and ontological way, and prayer to them is prayer to God.
The Head has the place of primacy. The Head of the church is Jesus; God the Son. Again, if my left hand itches, it takes the brain to send a signal to the right hand to scratch the left. The left hand does not directly communicate nor control the right, the brain does. Remove a human’s head, and the right will never scratch the left.
I’m sorry, but that last statement brings the conversation to a close because it shows that we are truly far apart on this issue; praying to a Saint is not prayer to God. I’m not upset or angry, just accepting the situation. I truly do think it was a good conversation! Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. :curtsey:
And, BTW, there are in fact “red letter” believers that only think those words are of Divine origin, I (we?) obviously disagree.
