Protestants and Wine: A Question

[Fred_4]

Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

I believe it’s more complicated than that. Wine from grapes must be used in the Eucharist. If one thinks that the Eucharist is merely a symbol, rather than the real presence, they probably ought not to be receiving anyway.

 

[elvisman]

Please allow me to add to my post above.

I would not get into this argument. You will only alienate them further against Catholicism and make it difficult for the next Catholic who meets them.

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I was thinking about what I would do if the Pope ORDERED Catholics to partake of the Precious Blood along with the Body of Christ.

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I feel so strongly against alcohol (notice I said “feel”–this is a heart thing, not a mind thing) that I would refuse. Yes, I would.

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BTW, there are Biblical passage where the virtues of wine and strong drink are extolled, and yes, Paul does tell Timothy to take a little wine for medicical purposes (not with dinner!). But there are no COMMANDS telling Christians that they MUST drink alcohol. Thank God for that, or I think there would be more people who would convert to Islam.

I have a problem with this kind of reasoning - I really do.
I don’t mean to offend you, it’s just that I believe that some of this is just silly. Whereas, I realize that we must approach some Protestants and non-believers with a little extra sensitivity, I believe that is is silly and dishonest to beat around the bush about the truth.
**To say that the bible contains EVERYTHING we must do or must NOT do is to not have a realistic grasp of what it contains. ****The bible doesn’t COMMAND us to eat spaghetti - but I don’t believe that it is wrong, either. **If you choose not to drink, that’s fine. If I choose to drink (not to excess, mind you) that’s fine, too.
There are people who drink one glass of red wine with dinner every day because of the health benefits. I place those who believe that alcohol - in and of itself - is patently evil in the same category as those who believe that money - in and of itself - is also evil. Money can be used to do great good, just as it can be used to do great evil.
If alcohol was “evil” as you say, then why did Jesus use it to institute the Eucharist?
**Again - I do not mean to offend you - it’s just my 2 cents . . .:twocents: **

 

[elvisman]

I believe it’s more complicated than that. Wine from grapes must be used in the Eucharist. If one thinks that the Eucharist is merely a symbol, rather than the real presence, they probably ought not to be receiving anyway.

Beautifully put.

 

[Fred_4]

Again, I’m not saying this to argue, but only to try to communicate with you about how teetotalling Christians FEEL so that you can better understand them and STOP trying to convince them that they are unBiblical. I absoluly agree with all who say that there is no sin in alcohol and that the Bible does not teach total abstinence–with my BRAIN I agree. But with my heart, I scream out against it.

QUOTE]

Drunkeness is a sin according to the Church and the scriptures. So is gluttony. Do you feel as put-off by the overweight person sidling up for another slice of pie as you do by the red-eyed wobbly man going for another beer?

 

[PaulDupre]

Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

If someone has an aversion to wine, he can receive the eucharist under the species of bread only. There has never been any requirement to receive under both species.

In fact, those with celiac disease (allergy to wheat gluten) can receive under the species of wine only.

Both are perfectly valid ways of receiving Jesus in the eucharist.

Paul

 

[mozart-250]

It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

There are other reasons for choosing not to drink other than a belief that alcohol consumption is always a sin (although clearly drunkenness is).

For a period of 20 years I did not drink at all (for a number of reasons), even though I had no problems with others that might choose differently.

Now on rare occasions I will have a very weak wine drink, but I am very careful on how much and how often.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Drunkeness is a sin according to the Church and the scriptures. So is gluttony. Do you feel as put-off by the overweight person sidling up for another slice of pie as you do by the red-eyed wobbly man going for another beer?

Yes!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I believe it’s more complicated than that. Wine from grapes must be used in the Eucharist. If one thinks that the Eucharist is merely a symbol, rather than the real presence, they probably ought not to be receiving anyway.

If you care to read up on Welch did you will find he went through alot of effort to produce just that.

In noticing you didnt mention the stumbling portion of my comments. and just resort to the old nut that its symbolic and who cares.

If it causes your brother to sin then you shouldnt do it, try reading Cats post maybe that may make sense to you and others.

 

[ralphinal]

My two second rant…I have heard Baptist preachers go on and on and on about alcohol but nothing about going to the all-you-can-eat buffet. Glutony is a sin as well. Preach on that! I would pay money to hear a preacher say that all you can eat should be banned because it leads some to sin.
Thank you. You will now be returned to regular postings

 

[Kitty_Chan]

There are other reasons for choosing not to drink other than a belief that alcohol consumption is always a sin (although clearly drunkenness is).

For a period of 20 years I did not drink at all (for a number of reasons), even though I had no problems with others that might choose differently.

Now on rare occasions I will have a very weak wine drink, but I am very careful on how much and how often.

Mozart this is only inspired by you, not directed at you.

you all want to know the “nutshell” of this discussion, its right here. SIN plain and simple.

If one states they are abstainers, and wont drink. It immediately puts off those that do. They immediately feel “guilty” and the need to justify what they do.

The reason anyone abstains is because TO THAT person it is bad for them. Just because they dont DOES NOT mean you dont have to, you can based on your own strengths and weaknesses. We are to hold up one another and strengthen each other.

While the bible says not to drink to excess, it also says not to do alot to excess. Would you offer pie to a obese person? What about a diabetic? which I am, does anyone know how many people say oh just have one to me? They dont know what that does to a person.

Its about addictions, no one treats them seriously enough. Those that choose to have juice over wine should not be held accountable. They have a commitment (they may not even be ex drunks) and should not be tempted to stray from it.

Especially in something so important as the blood of our Lord.

 

[East_and_West]

Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

Jesus consecrated wine, not grape juice. We shouldn’t contradict the scriptures.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

If you care to read up on Welch did you will find he went through alot of effort to produce just that.

“unfermented sacramental wine” is what Welch made.
Wine is fermented, grape juice is not. Hence he did not make wine! He just figured out how to bottle grape juice so it would turn to vinegar or ferment into wine.

Jesus and the apostles did not drink unfermented grape juice at the last supper…they drank wine.
I betcha they didnt eat wonder bread at the last supper either!

 

[Erich]

How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…

John2:6-7:

Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.

By my calculations, that would be 120 to 180 gallons of wine

 

[Kitty_Chan]

“unfermented sacramental wine” is what Welch made.
Wine is fermented, grape juice is not. Hence he did not make wine! He just figured out how to bottle grape juice so it would turn to vinegar or ferment into wine.

I said he made a fine product considering the grape, I did not claim wine.

And as a side note he did invent the juice, no one had done so before that. Sort of like inventing the light bulb.

Jesus and the apostles did not drink unfermented grape juice at the last supper…they drank wine.
I betcha they didnt eat wonder bread at the last supper either!

Yes they couldnt drink welches grape juice it wasnt invented then. Beyond this why dont you go back and read CATs post and perhaps mine to get a better picture about what is being discussed. Rather than trying to start goat farms with attempts at degrading statements about wonder bread.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Jesus consecrated wine, not grape juice. We shouldn’t contradict the scriptures.

Jesus didnt drive a car either.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

And as a side note he did invent the juice, no one had done so before that. Sort of like inventing the light bulb.

Grape juice is nothing new (gosh how do you think they made wine all of those years ago?) . What he invented was a way to pastuerize it

Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice

Yes they couldnt drink welches grape juice it wasnt invented then.

Grape juice is nothing new it is the base of wine.
So if they wanted to they could of drunk grape juice what they couldnt of drunk is pasteurized grape juice which is what Welch made

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Grape juice is nothing new (gosh how do you think they made wine all of those years ago?) . What he invented was a way to pastuerize it
Grape juice is nothing new it is the base of wine.
So if they wanted to they could of drunk grape juice what they couldnt of drunk is pasteurized grape juice which is what Welch made

oh so what your saying is then that there was grape juice and that was what they drank. so there is no proof of it being fermented. thanks for providing proof for the baptists! good work.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

oh so what your saying is then that there was grape juice and that was what they drank. so there is no proof of it being fermented. thanks for providing proof for the baptists! good work.

LOL!

You are twisting my words, you Protestant by any chance?
What I stated was a refute to your silly comment that Welch invented grape juice.
And there is plenty of proof in the Bible that they drank wine and not juice…these two off the top of my head
John 2: 3-10.
1 Timothy 5:23

 

[Kitty_Chan]

LOL!

You are twisting my words, you Protestant by any chance?
What I stated was a refute to your silly comment that Welch invented grape juice.
And there is plenty of proof in the Bible that they drank wine and not juice…these two off the top of my head
John 2: 3-10.
1 Timothy 5:23

hey, just playing by your rules, jumping to conclusions things like that.

the subject was a question about the wine, not a chance to pull out a pineta and hit it.

oh and ps if welch didnt invent it then it was around then and available so they could have picked it up just as easily as wine so there your arguement goes. Im not twisting only agreeing with you

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

hey, just playing by your rules, jumping to conclusions things like that.

Didnt jump to conclusions…
you posted…

KITTY:

If you care to read up on Welch did you will find he went through alot of effort to produce just that

IN RESPOSNE TO
FRED4:

I believe it’s more complicated than that. Wine from grapes must be used in the Eucharist. If one thinks that the Eucharist is merely a symbol, rather than the real presence, they probably ought not to be receiving anyway.

oh and ps if welch didnt invent it then it was around then and available so they could have picked it up just as easily as wine so there your arguement goes. Im not twisting only agreeing with you

Not really.
What he invented was pasteurized grape juice. That was not around then
Once again crack open your bible…tell me if they mention grape juice at the last supper or at the wedding at Cana
And your not agreeing, your twisting again. But hey if that makes you feel better:shrug: